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Best Move? Best Move?

11-30-2014 , 03:47 AM
How would you guys play this move? GNU didn't like my move of 12/7 6/4:

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11-30-2014 , 06:35 AM
Maybe you have to make the 10 point because his 6 es and his 5 are blocked, and enforce your outfield. Otb i'd have played as you said btw.
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11-30-2014 , 06:36 AM
I think that the move you played is not a huge blunder anyway so it's close imo
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11-30-2014 , 07:20 AM
Thanks Fllecha - actually 12/7 6/4 is, according to GNU, a pretty significant blunder. It is the 6th best move, with a win of .64, compared with the best move which wins .69. Moreover, the top move, (which I'll post later today allowing some time for others to comment) surprised me, which is why I posted this particular position.

Your consideration of making the 10 point is the 2nd best move, winning .668.

This is an area of the game in which I need to improve - those games when we have to block an opponent's single checker in our home board or it's game over.

Last edited by midiboy; 11-30-2014 at 07:35 AM.
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11-30-2014 , 07:56 AM
The "computer move" here I guess is to hit lose his backman. The point maybe is to hit a single back checker and prime two back checkers. His home board has crashed so its not a threat at all, and even if he hits he cannot easy escape. Otb though you its a little gutsy to break a great blocker point and hit loose, mostly because if you are wrong you are usually wrong by a lot
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11-30-2014 , 08:20 AM
Exactly my thought process too - perhaps hitting in this situation would be best. Nope, according to GNU. I'll go ahead and tell ya' - GNU says the best move is 12/5 - a move which makes me nervous considering I'm leaving my opponent a direct shot. It might be statistically best, but I have too many memories of dancing on the bar - even with 3 open points - as the game slips away.
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11-30-2014 , 08:37 AM
Backgammon teaches a somewhat pessimistic view of itself. Selective memory helps too. If you slot the 5 point you are hit 30% and one should look at that Number as a "low" percentage. In addition we look at the initial position as a "won" game and like in chess you dont want complications or give your opponent some chanches to counterplay. In an actual game i think its still the correct way to play. Mathematically may Be a 0.50 or 0.60 error but You play more comfortably later if your opponent dont hit a joker. I still think that i would not play that move in a tournament even if i rollout the position on a computer in the side of my board
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11-30-2014 , 08:41 AM
Mostly because over the long term the game usually continue with a bad roll by white (almost any roll is bad, and things remain the same with a better builder distribution on our side.) instead if you slot and you are hit you may re-enter but you dont hit opponent may roll good and we lose and psycologically its hard to accept
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11-30-2014 , 08:51 AM
I understand what you're saying. I think it was just yesterday when I lost a ridiculous gammon as I danced away, repeatedly rolling 2-1's trying to enter from the bar (the 1 and 2 points were blocked of course). I was lucky to avoid a backgammon. Those kinds of games take a psychological toll, and too many of them can make a player avoid what might be the best move. I'll take a closer look at that 12/5 move later today and try to figure out why GNU sees it as best.

(It was also one of those games when I was way ahead in the game, doubled, the player foolishly accepted then proceeded to joker his way back into the game. The agony of defeat was particularly sharp and long-lasting )

Last edited by midiboy; 11-30-2014 at 09:02 AM.
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11-30-2014 , 09:18 AM
Well 12/5 is very simple to understand once gnu says its best. You slot the gap trying to build a full 6 prime and then the game is won. Even if you are hit its not easy for oppo to scramble home, and your dancing probability is low.
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11-30-2014 , 09:36 AM
Right, I understand the strategy of the move, just not enough to see why it's better than the others. I may get pen and paper out later to figure it out a little better.

Thanks for all your input!
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11-30-2014 , 02:04 PM
In this position, Blue trails by 62 pips. He needs 9 crossovers—5 rolls—to bring all his checkers home. That is too much time to give his opponent. Sooner or later, White will roll a 3, either escaping, or moving into escape position. Blue’s plan, therefore, must include making his 5pt. He cannot play passively.

The direct way is to slot. I would be more comfortable with that approach if Blue had more covers. As it stands, however, 1 is the only covering number within direct range. Slotting may still be on the agenda, but perhaps on the turn following this one, when there will be more covers.

Bringing builders down for the 5pt is the alternative to slotting. Blue wants to have builders in direct range of the 5pt, even if he leaves fly shots in the process. 15/10, 13/11 is the best way to do that. That is the play both GnuBg and XG prefer in rollouts. It risks being hit on just 4 rolls, 63 and 53, but those are great numbers for White whether he hits with them or not.

This is a fascinating position to play out. I used XG’s “Play-from-position” feature to play the critical rolls following this 52 about twenty-five times. In GnuBg, you can do the same thing by going back to the 52, and replaying from there. I never finished any game. I played just long enough to see how the battle for the 5pt came out.

According to XG, after moving builders down on this roll (and cubing when White fails to jump into the outfield), almost any roll that does not make the 5pt should be used to slot it. It is never right to break the 7pt or 8pt in order to make the 5pt. Slotting is better, even with a roll like 33. (The exception is 22. With that roll, you make the 5pt, and then hit loose on the 2pt.)

Containment is an area where the bots still make mistakes. When you are suspicious that GnuBg or XG has made an error in a containment position, it is a good idea to check using a higher setting. In XG, you can run a quick eval using XG Roller++. In GnuBg, I recommend using the truncated rollout I describe here. It mimics the settings used by XG Roller++. Either one would have told you not to slot. In an endgame position like this one, you can also make a full rollout with relative ease.

Mike

Last edited by Taper_Mike; 11-30-2014 at 02:31 PM.
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11-30-2014 , 02:20 PM
Mike - what a fantastic explanation! I have to admit, though, it's almost disheartening reading yours and others' posts on this forum - it makes me realize how far I have to go in the understanding of this game. But nothing worthwhile comes easy.

I will read through your post again a little later today when I have some time, and will examine the scenarios you pointed out. I might have some questions and will post back to ask them.

Thanks again!
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11-30-2014 , 04:48 PM
Mike - I followed your instructions for the GNU truncated rollouts (thanks for that btw). I selected rollout "a," which is the full 1296 trials. I got pretty much the same results as before in terms of move hierarchy. In other words, and unless I'm mistaken, it still suggests slotting the 5. The builder move 15/10 13/11 did move to 2nd spot however.


Last edited by midiboy; 11-30-2014 at 04:53 PM.
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11-30-2014 , 06:51 PM
Speaking for myself, I prefer a relaxed approach, and don't make fuss about a 0.05 difference, particularly not in the beginning and middle stages of the game. But there might be psychological reasons for choosing 13/5:
-the opponent might think you are a loose player, and slow his cube behaviour
-the opponent has had some bad luck recently, and missing a blot again might make him tilt a little bit.
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11-30-2014 , 08:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by midiboy
Thanks Fllecha - actually 12/7 6/4 is, according to GNU, a pretty significant blunder. It is the 6th best move, with a win of .64, compared with the best move which wins .69. Moreover, the top move, (which I'll post later today allowing some time for others to comment) surprised me, which is why I posted this particular position.

Your consideration of making the 10 point is the 2nd best move, winning .668.
On a different note, you might want to get used to think about equity instead of win percentage. It's more a more useful measure to use in a lot of ways.
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11-30-2014 , 08:16 PM
I understand what you're saying Yogi, but I never would have considered slotting the 5, which is what makes this position, at least for me, valuable to understand a little better.

Appreciate your psych perspectives - another part of the game I need to improve upon.
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11-30-2014 , 08:23 PM
Will do that, Aaron - I understand the gist in terms of what equity means, but add that and market loser to the list of topics I need to study more.
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11-30-2014 , 08:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by midiboy
Mike - I followed your instructions for the GNU truncated rollouts (thanks for that btw). I selected rollout "a," which is the full 1296 trials. I got pretty much the same results as before in terms of move hierarchy. In other words, and unless I'm mistaken, it still suggests slotting the 5. The builder move 15/10 13/11 did move to 2nd spot however.
Very interesting! This has to be a score effect, of course.

A couple of years ago I began using no-Jacoby for my “unlimited game” practice sessions and rollouts. I turned it off so that these money games would better approximate a match with the tied score many points away from victory. Evidently, that’s enough to swing the choice of plays here, and not by a small amount.

Three rollouts follow, all made using the same seed. To shorten rollout times, I included only the slotting play and the building play. The first is for no-Jacoby. The second is for a match tied at 11-away. The third is a cash game using the Jacoby Rule. Slotting loses in the first two rollouts, but wins when Jacoby is enforced.

The key is gammon losses. You can find them among the psuedo-cubeless win percentages of the rollouts. Those are found in the second line of data given for each play. They begin with 6 numbers followed by the letters CL (and then some more numbers).

The first three numbers are estimated win percentages for Blue. The first is for games where Blue wins at least a single game, so without Jacoby (as in the first rollout), the building play 15/10 13/11 is winning about 70% percent of the time. This total includes all single wins, gammon wins, and backgammon wins. The second number is the percentage of games where Blue wins either a gammon or backgammon. Putting it another way, it is the percentage of games where Blue wins at least a gammon. The third number gives the percentage of games where Blue wins a backgammon. Of course, since White has already borne off two checkers, Blue can win neither a gammon nor backgammon, so both percentages are 0%.

Following the data for Blue is a hyphen followed by the same three numbers for his opponent White. Looking again at the no-Jacoby rollout, you can see that when Blue makes the building play, White will win at least a single game about 30% of the time. After Blue makes the slotting play, White wins just a tad more often, around 31%. The big difference is gammons. The slotting plays loses 4% more gammons than the building play, 11% versus 7%.

When there is a cube turn, the Jacoby Rule does not matter either way. Blue must pay for his gammon losses after a take. The key is what happens after a no-double. One of the things I observed when I played this position out (about 25 times) was that White usually cannot double after he is lucky enough to jump into the outfied on his first try. Even when Blue misses the shot in the outfield, White must roll, and the game often swings when he does.

If White can jump past most of Blue’s stragglers on his second roll, and survives until his third roll, often he will have lost his market. In the no-Jacoby variation, he should play on, and collect his 7% gammons. In the games where Blue slotted, that will be 11%. With Jacoby in effect, however, White should not play on. He must double, and collect just a single point when Blue passes.

What that means is that Blue can afford to slot when the Jacoby Rule is present. When it doesn’t work out for him, he won’t be paying for his gammon losses. He will simply be passing. It is these gammons that explain the big difference in equity when Jacoby is enforced. In the Jaboby rollout at the bottom, that was just enough to allow the slotting play to nose ahead of the building play.

Mike
Unlimited Game – No Jacoby – 1k Rollout, GnuBg 1.04
Code:
    1. Rollout          15/10 13/11                  Eq.:  +0.62
       0.70 0.00 0.00 - 0.30 0.07 0.00 CL  +0.32 CF  +0.62
      [0.00 0.00 0.00 - 0.00 0.00 0.00 CL   0.00 CF   0.00]
        Full cubeful rollout with var.redn.
        1296 games, Mersenne Twister dice gen. with seed 760432305 and quasi-random dice
        Play: supremo 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]
        keep the first 0 0-ply moves and up to 16 more moves within equity 0.32
        Skip pruning for 1-ply moves.
        Cube: 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]
    2. Rollout          12/5                         Eq.:  +0.57 ( -0.05)
       0.69 0.00 0.00 - 0.31 0.11 0.00 CL  +0.28 CF  +0.57
      [0.00 0.00 0.00 - 0.00 0.00 0.00 CL   0.00 CF   0.00]
        Full cubeful rollout with var.redn.
        1296 games, Mersenne Twister dice gen. with seed 760432305 and quasi-random dice
        Play: supremo 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]
        keep the first 0 0-ply moves and up to 16 more moves within equity 0.32
        Skip pruning for 1-ply moves.
        Cube: 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]
Match Play – Tied at 11-away – 1k Rollout, GnuBg 1.04
Code:
    1. Rollout          15/10 13/11                  Eq.:  +0.64
       0.70 0.00 0.00 - 0.30 0.07 0.00 CL  +0.32 CF  +0.64
      [0.00 0.00 0.00 - 0.00 0.00 0.00 CL   0.00 CF   0.00]
        Full cubeful rollout with var.redn.
        1296 games, Mersenne Twister dice gen. with seed 760432305 and quasi-random dice
        Play: supremo 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]
        keep the first 0 0-ply moves and up to 16 more moves within equity 0.32
        Skip pruning for 1-ply moves.
        Cube: 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]
    2. Rollout          12/5                         Eq.:  +0.57 ( -0.07)
       0.69 0.00 0.00 - 0.31 0.11 0.00 CL  +0.27 CF  +0.57
      [0.00 0.00 0.00 - 0.00 0.00 0.00 CL   0.00 CF   0.00]
        Full cubeful rollout with var.redn.
        1296 games, Mersenne Twister dice gen. with seed 760432305 and quasi-random dice
        Play: supremo 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]
        keep the first 0 0-ply moves and up to 16 more moves within equity 0.32
        Skip pruning for 1-ply moves.
        Cube: 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]
Unlimited Game – Jacoby Rule in Effect – 1k Rollout, GnuBg 1.04
Code:
    1. Rollout          12/5                         Eq.:  +0.59
       0.69 0.00 0.00 - 0.31 0.11 0.00 CL  +0.28 CF  +0.59
      [0.00 0.00 0.00 - 0.00 0.00 0.00 CL   0.00 CF   0.00]
        Full cubeful rollout with var.redn.
        1296 games, Mersenne Twister dice gen. with seed 760432305 and quasi-random dice
        Play: supremo 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]
        keep the first 0 0-ply moves and up to 16 more moves within equity 0.32
        Skip pruning for 1-ply moves.
        Cube: 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]
    2. Rollout          15/10 13/11                  Eq.:  +0.59 ( -0.00)
       0.69 0.00 0.00 - 0.31 0.07 0.00 CL  +0.31 CF  +0.59
      [0.00 0.00 0.00 - 0.00 0.00 0.00 CL   0.00 CF   0.00]
        Full cubeful rollout with var.redn.
        1296 games, Mersenne Twister dice gen. with seed 760432305 and quasi-random dice
        Play: supremo 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]
        keep the first 0 0-ply moves and up to 16 more moves within equity 0.32
        Skip pruning for 1-ply moves.
        Cube: 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]

Last edited by Taper_Mike; 11-30-2014 at 09:06 PM.
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12-01-2014 , 12:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by midiboy
Will do that, Aaron - I understand the gist in terms of what equity means, but add that and market loser to the list of topics I need to study more.
The only thing you need to know right now is that equity takes into account gammon wins and gammon losses better than win percentage alone. There's a huge difference between winning 60% of the time with no gammons and winning 60% of the time with 30% gammons. You'd much rather be in the latter situation, and this will show up in the equity value.
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12-01-2014 , 03:07 AM
Mike - thanks again for your comprehensive explanation - so Jacoby is the culprit. I'll turn it off. I'll take a more in-depth look at the rest of your post after some much-needed zzz's.

Aaron - yep; that was pretty much the extent of my limited understanding of equity. Good to know I'm on the right track. Thanks!
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12-01-2014 , 04:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by midiboy
Mike - thanks again for your comprehensive explanation - so Jacoby is the culprit. I'll turn it off. I'll take a more in-depth look at the rest of your post after some much-needed zzz's.

Aaron - yep; that was pretty much the extent of my limited understanding of equity. Good to know I'm on the right track. Thanks!
The best reason to practice against a bot using the Jacoby Rule is because you play in a lot of chouettes where it is used.

The best reason to turn it off is so you get practice making the "too-good-to-double" decision (on a 1-cube). With Jacoby turned on, you can never be too good on a 1-cube.

Unlimited (money) games without Jacoby is also a good way to remove the score effects that distort play in a match. When there is no Jacoby Rule, unlimited games is the same thing as a match tied at infinity-away. That's why a lot of match players like to practice with it turned off.

BTW, whatever Aaron says is pretty much gospel with me. Back when Robertie was still doing the Problem of the Week, he had one of the best right/wrong records of any of the posters then active. His was much better than mine.

Mike
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12-01-2014 , 09:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by midiboy
Exactly my thought process too - perhaps hitting in this situation would be best. Nope, according to GNU. I'll go ahead and tell ya' - GNU says the best move is 12/5 - a move which makes me nervous considering I'm leaving my opponent a direct shot. It might be statistically best, but I have too many memories of dancing on the bar - even with 3 open points - as the game slips away.
I think the idea is that white escapes with a 3 anyway. Getting hit barely matters, in fact it probably helps because it gives you another man back to contain his runner.
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12-01-2014 , 10:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taper_Mike
BTW, whatever Aaron says is pretty much gospel with me. Back when Robertie was still doing the Problem of the Week, he had one of the best right/wrong records of any of the posters then active. His was much better than mine.
That's because I mostly only answered problems where I was pretty sure I knew what was going on.

Last edited by Aaron W.; 12-01-2014 at 10:33 AM. Reason: There's some saying about opening your mouth and proving that you're a fool...
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12-01-2014 , 12:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by peachpie
I think the idea is that white escapes with a 3 anyway. Getting hit barely matters, in fact it probably helps because it gives you another man back to contain his runner.
Right, except that slotting is not the best play. At normal match scores and in money games without the Jacoby Rule, it is distinctly better to position builders on this turn, and slot on the next. Only when you have the protection against gammon losses that Jacoby gives, does it pay to slot "prematurely."

Given that information, can you figure out what play is best at DMP? What about gammon-go, where you trail 2-away, 1-away in the Crawford game of a match?

Mike
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