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01-28-2016 , 12:25 PM
I really enjoyed the responses in my last thread so I will post another position that I really struggled with before moving. Here is a new position. I will post my thinking and thought process in the spoiler and will hold of on posting the recommendation from XG until later.

Note: If I'm posting too many positions and it would be better for me to stop just let me know. The forum doesn't seem too busy though and my previous thread generated some decent discussion and it was great for my learning so I will continue to post these in the interim.

White - Pips 146

Black - Pips 173
Black to Play 5-1
Created with www.BGdiagram.com

Spoiler:

My thoughts:
  • Hitting the 3 seems overly risky as I can't make the point in the near future and it doesn't help me much in the race.
  • Playing 14/9 sort of sucks as it leaves two direct shots on an advanced blot.
  • Playing 15/8 sort of sucks because it creates a big stack that doesn't help me with my diversification problem.
Eliminating all of those 5's left me with final move.
Another Position Quote
01-28-2016 , 12:51 PM
I think a problem a day from you would be good for the forum.

Haven't read the spoiler.

Hitting seems sort of reasonable because you have the stronger board, but it's sort of feeble with only 7 checkers near your home board ("in the zone") and you're hitting with the last spare on your 8 and you are hitting off the 3 point, not the 4 point... so all in all, I guess I don't like hitting.

I would just play 14/8 which does a good thing at no real risk. I like that better than 21/16 14/13 mainly because the distribution would be screwed up with a big stack on the midpoint. And the back checker on the 21 doesn't seem like a big problem at the moment.
Another Position Quote
01-28-2016 , 01:04 PM
Comment on your thinking in the spoiler --

4 checkers on the 8 shouldn't be considered a big stack in the opening. You generally want to keep your 8 point, so you can basically think of it as 2 spares, as opposed to a stack of 4 checkers. When you get to 5 checkers that's when it's a little too stacky.

Say you roll a 4-1 on the opening roll. The beginners play of 13/8 is only a small error. In fact, after playing 13/9 24/23, if someone offered you the opportunity to play the checker on the 9 point to the 8 point, you should take it (though part of that is due to the 1 pip in the race).
Another Position Quote
01-28-2016 , 01:10 PM
It's obviously a bad roll in a tough spot. I would suggest 21/16 14/13. I have no idea how accurate that is, but it leaves the fewest blots and gives you a couple of re-hit opportunities if you do get hit. It doesn't give you a lot of diversification but helps in the race - to me seems the best of a bunch of bad options.

(I'm quite new to this forum but love my backgammon so hope to join in some of these debates in the future).
Another Position Quote
01-28-2016 , 01:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Z_
I think a problem a day from you would be good for the forum.
Agree.

The 1 looks clear, 14/13. The question is what to do with the 5. Hitting loose looks futile with so little ammunition available. So it seems a choice between 13/8 and 21/16. 13/8 balances checkers a little better, while 21/16 brings one more man around. I choose 21/16 because it eyes a couple possible new outfield points, and also tempts white to break his midpoint to hit.
Another Position Quote
01-29-2016 , 01:52 PM
The results:

Spoiler:


1. XG Roller++ 21/20 8/3* eq:-0.111
Player: 46.89% (G:10.69% B:0.38%)
Opponent: 53.11% (G:12.18% B:0.27%)

2. XG Roller++ 8/3* 3/2 eq:-0.119 (-0.008)
Player: 46.85% (G:11.62% B:0.39%)
Opponent: 53.15% (G:13.79% B:0.38%)

3. XG Roller++ 14/13 8/3* eq:-0.123 (-0.012)
Player: 46.66% (G:11.11% B:0.38%)
Opponent: 53.34% (G:13.33% B:0.31%)

4. XG Roller++ 14/8 eq:-0.146 (-0.035)
Player: 45.61% (G:10.08% B:0.34%)
Opponent: 54.39% (G:10.94% B:0.21%)

5. XG Roller++ 21/15 eq:-0.147 (-0.036)
Player: 45.52% (G:9.32% B:0.37%)
Opponent: 54.48% (G:10.62% B:0.22%)


So, it's a super close play with a lot of variations. I am not sure how large of an equity difference is required before a play becomes an "error", but I posted this because I was very surprised that hitting is the clear play here and that it doesn't matter much what you do with the one after that.

I played 21/15... woops.
Another Position Quote
01-31-2016 , 03:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkD
The results:

Spoiler:


1. XG Roller++ 21/20 8/3* eq:-0.111
Player: 46.89% (G:10.69% B:0.38%)
Opponent: 53.11% (G:12.18% B:0.27%)

2. XG Roller++ 8/3* 3/2 eq:-0.119 (-0.008)
Player: 46.85% (G:11.62% B:0.39%)
Opponent: 53.15% (G:13.79% B:0.38%)

3. XG Roller++ 14/13 8/3* eq:-0.123 (-0.012)
Player: 46.66% (G:11.11% B:0.38%)
Opponent: 53.34% (G:13.33% B:0.31%)

4. XG Roller++ 14/8 eq:-0.146 (-0.035)
Player: 45.61% (G:10.08% B:0.34%)
Opponent: 54.39% (G:10.94% B:0.21%)

5. XG Roller++ 21/15 eq:-0.147 (-0.036)
Player: 45.52% (G:9.32% B:0.37%)
Opponent: 54.48% (G:10.62% B:0.22%)


So, it's a super close play with a lot of variations. I am not sure how large of an equity difference is required before a play becomes an "error", but I posted this because I was very surprised that hitting is the clear play here and that it doesn't matter much what you do with the one after that.

I played 21/15... woops.
Spoiler:
The value in hitting is probably the fact that even if it "goes bad", getting hit means you have a return shot. You're far behind in the race, have more men back, and have a stronger board than your opponent, so Magriel's Bold-Safe criteria points clearly to hitting. You'd like to start an exchange of hits to possibly change the momentum of things. The status-quo is not good for you.

I had come up with 8/3*, 14/13 before seeing the rollout.
Another Position Quote
01-31-2016 , 10:38 AM
Some backgammon positions are just very difficult and seem to violate a lot of good rules for reasons that are hard to figure.

I would have made your play, pretty much for the reasons you listed. Hitting doesn't seem to accomplish much. I don't like to hit behind an established anchor, and if I hit I strip the 8-point, so covering may be difficult. Piling another checker on the 8 isn't appealing. Running out 21/15, on the other hand, looks pretty good. It creates a lot of numbers to make a new blocking point, and if White hits he loses his midpoint and still has a weak board.

Hitting 8/3* does take away half a roll, but White doesn't have any strong threats so this doesn't seem all that important. I'm going to take a guess and say that the swing when Black hits and White enters awkwardly is just large enough to justify the play. But I wouldn't have found this over the board.
Another Position Quote
02-01-2016 , 09:58 AM
I wouldn't sweat much about -0.03 errors. We all have bigger fish to fry than that.

Although I admit I was disappointed that my 14/13 21/16 didn't even make the list.
Another Position Quote
02-02-2016 , 06:08 PM
I would have played also 14/13 21/16.

I think this situation is very "messed up" to find the right one.
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