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Without God there can be no morality, so why don't atheists go kill people?! Without God there can be no morality, so why don't atheists go kill people?!

10-05-2011 , 10:18 AM
"Without God there can be no morality, so why don't atheists go rob people/kill people/[insert crime they currently refrain from here]?!"

This is a crude version of a question I've seen asked around here before. I can't remember his name, but one theist actually believed he could not justify the way he behaves without morality, and that without it he'd steal and commit other crimes. I've always felt this was nonsense, but I could never quite put forth a complete argument as to why. I've thought a lot about it and I'm ready to give it a shot.

I'll use a simple example: the idea of coming across a stranger carrying a pretty significant sum of money, say 2.5x your monthly income. You're confident in your ability to get the money if you attempt a robbery.

You would quite obviously want the money, but most moral codes dictate that you should not steal and that those who do are bad. Hence, you fail to even remotely consider the option of stealing, and simply repress your desire for (their) money. But what if you didn't subscribe to the idea of morality? Is the logical course of action to pull a knife and force them to hand over their money?

1) You really wouldn't want to rob someone.
If you admit that you could actually do this, disavow any moral code that would prevent it, and legitimately consider it, most non-psychopathic people would come to realise that they really wouldn't enjoy the experience. I really don't like the idea of pulling a knife on a stranger, scaring them half to death, and taking a large sum of money from them. I wouldn't be thinking "Wow! Think of how many Xbox 360s you can buy with this score!", but instead "Damn, I just robbed that poor person... maybe I'll go and give them their money back."

1.1) You feel bad! See, that's because of morality!

This is the part where people tell me that such negative emotions are the resulting effect of some mysterious godly moral voodoo. That I feel bad because what I did was morally wrong, and I know it. However, it makes sense that humans would evolve to feel bad when hurting others. If humans felt enticed to harm each other, the human race wouldn't have lasted very long. People feel empathy for others and can share their pain, which is where my unpleasant emotions come from.

It is also correct that a person's belief in morality can bring about intense feelings of guilt and shame, but just because you feel something is true, it doesn't mean that it actually is true. Your emotions are not some sixth sense that look out into the world and detect the truth. They're simply a reflection of your own thoughts and beliefs. As a small child your parents ingrained in you the concepts of "should/shouldn't", "good/bad", and "right/wrong". In most cases, parents don't even explain what these concepts are, or how they're in any way meaningful (they aren't imo, but that's a whole different topic). All the kid knows is that their previously loving, fawning parents are now enraged and considerably upset. The reason they give for such a turnaround is that the child behaved in a way they "shouldn't". Just like that, the child now embraces the concept and begins to assign actions to the category of "shouldn't". They assume it's very serious due to the sudden and drastic change in their parent's emotional state, and feel compelled to regain the love of their parents. This explains the source of the negative emotions one feels when they believe they have transgressed their moral code.

2 Life is not a zero sum game, and mutually beneficial relationships are more productive.
Consider your best friend, your relationship over the last ten years, and what the next ten will bring for you both. What is that relationship worth? £2000? £5000? What about a cool £10k? These are rhetorical questions, because most people would say that such a relationship is priceless.

So what if you'd chosen to rob that person at knife point upon meeting them, instead of sitting down and striking up a conversation, enjoying each other's company, and deciding to work together? Working positively with everyone you meet is of great benefit, as you'll surely see if you look at any strong, loving community.
3 Without a trusting agreement to not hurt each other, it is impossible to form relationships.

Let's assume you're a tad psychopathic (no offense), and don't feel empathy when hurting others, nor are you interested in making any friends. It's still in your best interests to agree on principle not to hurt people.

If I said I had no issue with robbing or killing you, you're hardly going to interact with me, are you? This would make it quite hard to live. Therefore, it's beneficial to presently agree to always uphold certain principles, such as refraining from stealing, even if at some point in the future an opportunity to do so would arise.

Of course, you could just lie and pretend that people could trust you not to do these things. However, as soon as you get caught, accused, or even merely suspected, the trust people had will be shattered, and they will be done with you. Your reputation will spread and you will be shunned by your community. Even petty shoplifting could net you a police caution, interfering with certain employment opportunities. Besides, if you're always looking to screw someone over, you'll be worried about the same happening to you, thereby preventing you from any meaningful relationships.
4 The prospect of retribution or punishment.
When discussing morality, people often ask "but what if you knew you wouldn't get caught?". This is highly unrealistic, as you can never guarantee you won't get caught. Even small infractions can lead to a tarnished reputation (and reputation is everything), while much more serious consequences will result from significantly pissing people off.

If caught, armed robbery in this instance would lead to a sentence of 4-7 years, increasing up to 12 years if you hurt them with the knife. You also run the risk of unlawful retribution carried out by the victim's friends or relatives, which could potentially be far worse. What sum of money is worth ruining your life over in this fashion?
So even if you dropped your belief in God tomorrow and your concept of morality went with it, there should be enough reasons here to explain why you wouldn't just start stabbing livers in exchange for iPods. Sure, there are some people with psychopathic tendencies, who are complete loners, who don't think about the long term, and don't care about getting hurt. However, I don't think frowning and telling them how bad they are really makes a difference to these people anyhow.

So the next time someone says "atheists can't believe in morality", instead of trying to explain how they can, maybe I should just respond with: "so what?"
Without God there can be no morality, so why don't atheists go kill people?! Quote
10-05-2011 , 10:32 AM
Quote:
"Without God there can be no morality, so why don't atheists go rob people/kill people/[insert crime they currently refrain from here]?!"
That's a misunderstanding of what people mean when they say "without god there can be no morality"
Without God there can be no morality, so why don't atheists go kill people?! Quote
10-05-2011 , 10:33 AM
In what way? Could you please elaborate?
Without God there can be no morality, so why don't atheists go kill people?! Quote
10-05-2011 , 10:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jibninjas
That's a misunderstanding of what people mean when they say "without god there can be no morality"
What do you think NotReady meant when he said, "what wrong?". Many theists feel that without god there truly can be no wrong. Many here have openly admitted that if they didn't feel to be under the 24 hour surveillance of an invisible authority that they would rape, murder, and steal if they thought they could get away with it. So what do you think these people mean?
Without God there can be no morality, so why don't atheists go kill people?! Quote
10-05-2011 , 11:27 AM
You have to define/describe what you think and what the other relevant people think as "God" here imo.
Without God there can be no morality, so why don't atheists go kill people?! Quote
10-05-2011 , 11:45 AM
The reason that Kimbos Beard would not steal could very well be due to the cultural inheritance of centuries of Judeo-Christian values which, of course, are based on belief in God.
Without God there can be no morality, so why don't atheists go kill people?! Quote
10-05-2011 , 12:22 PM
OMG, how didn't I think of that? Thanks, OP, I'm going out on a killing spree!

EDIT: realized OP was actually criticizing that position. Damn, just when I got excited
Without God there can be no morality, so why don't atheists go kill people?! Quote
10-05-2011 , 12:34 PM
Thank God you realised in time! I don't know how you controlled your natural compulsion to KILL without morality, for even a second!
Without God there can be no morality, so why don't atheists go kill people?! Quote
10-05-2011 , 01:22 PM
Damn, dude. Be careful with the misleading titles. Innocent people could have been killed if I hadn't looked at your post more carefully.
Without God there can be no morality, so why don't atheists go kill people?! Quote
10-05-2011 , 01:33 PM
I think a more forceful example, that really exposes the dilemma, would be the opportunity to commit a crime that brings you great gain, with no possibility of being caught, no possibility of reprisal.

If you are not superstitious, there really is no substantial reason not to gain the sum of loot.

10 years ago, I certainly "knew" that all morality was relative.
I only wanted to deny it because of christian arguments about how atheism leads to a loss of objective morality, and a loss of a moral foundation of any substance.
It's a crappy position for an atheist to be in, but it is what it is.
Sometimes you just gotta suck it up on some issues, and be honest with yourself.
Without God there can be no morality, so why don't atheists go kill people?! Quote
10-05-2011 , 02:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doggg
I think a more forceful example, that really exposes the dilemma, would be the opportunity to commit a crime that brings you great gain, with no possibility of being caught, no possibility of reprisal.

If you are not superstitious, there really is no substantial reason not to gain the sum of loot.
What if ill feel bad doing it. Is that enough of a reason?
Without God there can be no morality, so why don't atheists go kill people?! Quote
10-05-2011 , 04:56 PM
If there's a crime that inconveniences people so little that I don't feel bad for someone, and I have zero chance getting caught, then sure I'll do it. The only reason not to would be to feel warm and fuzzy due to gaining brownie points with God (who I don't believe in).

However, such a scenario is so highly contrived, to the point where it's practically impossible. If it's a legitimate crime, how can nobody get hurt? Why isn't there any security to catch people committing a bad crime? If this was the case, then you really have no issue performing the action, but are merely holding out because somebody decided to classify it as a "crime".

An example of such a thing in the Christian moral code, would be male on male ass-****ing.

Last edited by Kimbo's Beard; 10-05-2011 at 05:03 PM.
Without God there can be no morality, so why don't atheists go kill people?! Quote
10-05-2011 , 07:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doggg
I think a more forceful example, that really exposes the dilemma, would be the opportunity to commit a crime that brings you great gain, with no possibility of being caught, no possibility of reprisal.

If you are not superstitious, there really is no substantial reason not to gain the sum of loot.
Complete and utter bull****.

If I saw $1000 fall out of Bill Gates pocket, I would pick it up and hand it back to him. Why? Because I did not earn it and it belongs to him. But that's really a ridiculous scenario. Let's say I see someone who I know to be poor (just stipulate that I know for the sake of argument) drop $10 in the parking lot, I would pick it up and hand it back to them. Why? Because I did not earn it and it belongs to them. Even though one is more affected by my morality, the underlying cause remains. If I dropped money, I would want someone to return it to me, therefore, my actions towards others reflect my own desires. Empathy is the driving force behind morality, not God. Not getting caught is really of little consequence to me, when I consider that my actions would knowingly harm others.
Without God there can be no morality, so why don't atheists go kill people?! Quote
10-05-2011 , 08:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doggg
10 years ago, I certainly "knew" that all morality was relative.
I only wanted to deny it because of christian arguments about how atheism leads to a loss of objective morality, and a loss of a moral foundation of any substance.
That's odd, because I don't think morality is relative. The moral society can be derived logically and philosophically. There is no need for a creator. The relativists are the Christians who have to endure migraine-inducing cognitive dissonance and try to justify the horrors committed by and ordered by God in the Old Testament.

I cherish this life more precisely because I don't expect there to be an afterlife.
Without God there can be no morality, so why don't atheists go kill people?! Quote
10-06-2011 , 02:34 AM
This has got to be the dumbest thread title I've seen yet, and I come from the mentally challenged cesspit of BBV
Without God there can be no morality, so why don't atheists go kill people?! Quote
10-06-2011 , 06:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kb coolman
Complete and utter bull****.

If I saw $1000 fall out of Bill Gates pocket, I would pick it up and hand it back to him. Why? Because I did not earn it and it belongs to him. But that's really a ridiculous scenario. Let's say I see someone who I know to be poor (just stipulate that I know for the sake of argument) drop $10 in the parking lot, I would pick it up and hand it back to them. Why? Because I did not earn it and it belongs to them. Even though one is more affected by my morality, the underlying cause remains. If I dropped money, I would want someone to return it to me, therefore, my actions towards others reflect my own desires. Empathy is the driving force behind morality, not God. Not getting caught is really of little consequence to me, when I consider that my actions would knowingly harm others.
+1, I agree. I really don't see why god is so often brought up in morality discussions. In fact I would argue the most pure moral system would be one that's purely derived from our own reason because reason is the best thing that humans have. If our reason is what separates us from the other animals, then it stands to be that reason should be our sole basis of morality (assuming morality is something you consider important, which I do). The bible is not derived by reason, yet everything that humanity has ever achieved that is worth mentioning was done so by use of human reason, so this really isn't complicated. You don't need god to be a moral person, bottom line.

Why aren't atheists killing people? Could it have something to do with the use of their reason? Surely you didn't need to read the bible or believe in god to know that it's wrong to murder, rape or steal --- did you? And if you didn't know that before you read the bible or believed in god I think you are a neanderthal whose genes deserve to get stacked by one of the many true grinders in society..
Without God there can be no morality, so why don't atheists go kill people?! Quote
10-06-2011 , 01:42 PM
No one is going to say they're a stone cold killer. There certainly are though.

Will the thoughtful atheist come to the conclusion that his conscience is b.s., and override it? Especially if he has played a lot of poker and realises his "feelings" are sometimes "not true" ?

Sure he'll take care of his friends and family, thats +ev I guess, but what about the stranger? Will he say "I'm just a lion and this is the way the jungle works?"
Without God there can be no morality, so why don't atheists go kill people?! Quote
10-06-2011 , 01:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by StewTradheir
No one is going to say they're a stone cold killer. There certainly are though.
This condition exists whether God exists or not. DUCY?

Quote:
Will the thoughtful atheist come to the conclusion that his conscience is b.s., and override it? Especially if he has played a lot of poker and realises his "feelings" are sometimes "not true" ?
I don't see this condition being isolated to atheists.

Quote:
Sure he'll take care of his friends and family, thats +ev I guess, but what about the stranger? Will he say "I'm just a lion and this is the way the jungle works?"
If he's not a sociopath, he will act in accordance with morals and values of his society of influence.
Without God there can be no morality, so why don't atheists go kill people?! Quote
10-06-2011 , 01:55 PM
I know instead of holding the door opened i slam it on little old ladies i dont know. Why bother being nice if there is no God to bribe me with grand rewards.
Without God there can be no morality, so why don't atheists go kill people?! Quote
10-06-2011 , 01:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kb coolman
If he's not a sociopath, he will act in accordance with morals and values of his society of influence.
I said thoughtful atheist
Without God there can be no morality, so why don't atheists go kill people?! Quote
10-06-2011 , 02:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by StewTradheir
I said thoughtful atheist
Then he will act in accordance with the morals and values of his society. If he was taught the value of caring for others, then he will care for others. If not, he won't.

Funny, atheism and theism still have nothing to do with it.
Without God there can be no morality, so why don't atheists go kill people?! Quote
10-06-2011 , 03:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kb coolman
Then he will act in accordance with the morals and values of his society. If he was taught the value of caring for others, then he will care for others. If not, he won't.

Funny, atheism and theism still have nothing to do with it.
My point is, thoughtful people arn't utter toolbags. Hmm, whats everyone else doing, let me fit in...other than just enough to not alarm the herd.

With this in mind (or out of mind), what is the ultimate morality?

With God, there is a morality that exists outside of "mob thought", with atheism, the true believer (in naturalism) should come to the conclusion (if he isn't an utter toolbag) that he is just a "lion amongst sheep."
Without God there can be no morality, so why don't atheists go kill people?! Quote
10-06-2011 , 04:54 PM
Hmm, this is very interesting. Both conclusions (and their resulting morality, or total lack of) really are outside of the herd. One tries to enforce Gods morality (which really is all about protection from the lions), the other, whatever benefits himself.

The difference is the Go(o)d man is trying to protect the sheep, because he can see the lion and they can't, and the lion ("atheist") is trying to sheer them and turn them against the good man, so he can do it more efficiently.
Without God there can be no morality, so why don't atheists go kill people?! Quote
10-06-2011 , 05:18 PM
This is sort of like saying if space is homogenous and isotropic how can there be a difference between up and down? Clearly the fact that we are on Earth breaks the symmetry and we have a direction up and a direction down that are very different even though in the universe as a whole up and down are meaningless.

So the fact that we are intelligent and living in a society can bootstrap concepts like morality and make them as real to us as if they were laws of the universe, rather than just to our little piece of it. Just like the Earth makes it possible for me to say up and you know exactly what direction I am talking about.
Without God there can be no morality, so why don't atheists go kill people?! Quote
10-06-2011 , 05:28 PM
I should say my concept of morality isn't so vague. I'm a proponent of the Law of Moses that allows a little leeway. Like, If an adulterer is crying for their life, and saying they know they f'ed up and will obey the law, I might set my stone down.

If they say f Moses and his law, its stones away, (or shotgun or whatever). (theoretical, please no cops)
Without God there can be no morality, so why don't atheists go kill people?! Quote

      
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