My feelings are more real than you are, and they're more real than any thought, knowledge or reason. If I intuitively feel like I have control over my decision-making and behavior, this means more than the knowledge that I don't. Why? I can't say for certain that you exist. So when my time comes, its not me who will die, but rather, the universe.

As you can see here. One can conclude the complete opposite, and present an opposing philosophy that is also not falsifiable. This is precisely why we evolved a methodology (the research/science method) to sift through meaningless, non-falsifiable concepts.

"Keep watching and praying that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

IMO, self mastery makes no sense unless one realizes that he is both a soul and a body and that the inclinations of the body aren't very noble. So...you basically would have to think that there is a goal beyond self preservation and physical enjoyment - the animal inclinations. This isn't to say that there isn't a time and place for such activity, but the noble activity supersedes all side missions.

Of course this concept of the noble mission, the noble endeavor, or even attainment of enlightenment, makes no sense to the modern "christian", as his religion amounts to chanting "Jesus died for my sins" and then do whatev, but to the more serious student it can't be overlooked.

Regardless of religion I believe its meaningless to conflate - being knowledgeable and pursuing knowledge - with spiritual enlightenment or soul-enrichment.

So apart from pursuing greater knowledge, how else do you propose people enrich their 'soul' or become 'enlightened'?

I think a good argument could be made that any pursuit of knowledge that doesn't result in spiritual enlightenment or soul-enrichment is somewhat vain.

Hmm, well if I had attained this state, perhaps I could give a better answer, but all I have as of now is what I believe to be a good starting place. And that starting place is to categorize ones inclinations as emanating from ones body, or direction from God. However I'm kind of lazy and haven't gotten very far.

When 'spiritual enlightenment' and 'soul-enrichment' are left completely undefined anything can be true.

For example, it can also be true that any pursuit of knowledge that does result in spiritual enlightenment or soul-enrichment is somewhat vain.

Another possibility is that the pursuit of knowledge results in being more knowledgeable - and nothing else. Personally, I'm willing to bet on this possibility. Similarly, the pursuit of 'giving more' results in being more generous: not 'spiritual-enlightenment' or 'soul-enrichment'.

I don't know why you think things we make up are meaningless. We can construct various frameworks, test them against cases, decide the relevant features of the desired outcomes. These questions may all refer to properties we create but that doesn't render them meaningless.

We can distinguish meta and normative ethical considerations and still consider there is a better way to act. Normative ethics doesn't require moral realism .

Its not a non falsifiable concept. Science is already on its way to confirming it.

What you have written here is nothing like what I have written . You have a lot of subjective stuff( "my feelings are more real" " I feel like I have control over my decision making "). All I am saying is, there are no selves. Its a simple statement and is easily verifiable.

neeeel,

What I mean when I say that I want the "self" to get better, I speak in the same tone as wanting to learn a new language or math.

At some point you learnt and understood that 1+1 = 2, so in the same way I speak of betterment. It is acquiring knowledge to be better, just like being better at language or math. It is the same process. So I can agree with you that there is no self but I still want to learn what 2+7 =? and I want to learn how to be better.

Yet too restricted then possibly missing an essential component.

It's true that one would have to believe this enlightenment results in an eternal blissful (+ev happiness?) state of existence to escape all possible appearances of vanity, imo. (see Ecclesiastes)

If truly nothing else, then it's surely a vain pursuit.

Just on this an interesting book review which sets the arguments for Ethics for Physicalists

Ok, well, decide what "better" means to you, and then try to be like that.

If you decide that learning to cook well help you be better, then go and learn to cook well. That would be similar to learning that 1+1 = 2

What I have been talking about is something completely different.

I suspect that by "betterment" you arent actually talking about skills like 1+1 = 2, but more about things like goodness, virtuousness, more spiritual. There is no knowledge you can acquire that can do that.

What's the leading theory on this? Determinism?

Are you implying that there is a way to prove determinism?

Secondly, this discounts centuries of philosophy and their ideas of 'self' and 'free-will'. How can you with any real certainty conclude that a world, and people therein, exist independently to your own subjective experience? All that can be concluded with any certainty is that 'something exists' and that in order for anything to be concluded, it is required that someone exists - you. "I think, therefore I am". Beyond this, its all assumption-driven knowledge.

Feeling in control (like you have free-will) may mean more than all the assumption-driven knowledge in the world. That's all I'm suggesting to you.

I don't think you understand the nature of change and that I'm trying to change. I'm not fixed in my beliefs, like a tree rooted to the ground. I believe them (whatever it is) until I learn something new that changes that belief, so I'm looking for the things that bring me enjoyment.

I hope that makes it clear for you!

Of course there is. If I want to be more virtuous, the first thing is should do is learn what the virtues are, then I can try to live by them. I learned something that helped me be more virtuous.

Thank you for saying that mightyboosh I was going to post something along the same lines but felt I was wasting my time. I really don't understand how he doesn't get that already.

Well i hope you find more to enjoy then!! Careful with poker though it starts with love and then sometime turns to hate. More boredom then hate..