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Why can't atheists and theists meet somewhere in the middle? Why can't atheists and theists meet somewhere in the middle?

10-13-2014 , 10:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tame_deuces
That is irrelevant. "Birds" is more specific than "animals", but "birds can fly" is still too broad, but "animals are living creatures" is not.

It is the application that determines if a categorical term is too broadly or narrowly applied, not its relation to other categories.
It's not the relation to other categories I'm interested in; that is just an intuition pump for MB (which I'll return to presently). I agree that the application is the main issue, but the level of abstraction is what I am highlighting. To run with your examples from zoology:

"Snakes are venomous" - specific, low abstraction, useful.
"Living things are venomous" - more abstract, sort of true but possibility of being unclear or misleading.
"Life is venomous" - high level of abstraction, very unclear, borderline meaningless without clarification.

The reason I made the point about theocracy/democracy is to give MB a sense of how it's possible to jump down several levels of abstraction and then say "Ha! Well you'd accept that this proposition is meaningful" but it fails to address the point. I agree that at such a lower level of abstraction, the propositions become meaningful.

Finally, as you agree that the application is key to this, please respond to my request that you outline a methodology (feel free to make up any data) that would make sense of a quantitative analysis of the claim "society is a net negative". It really is easy to change my mind on this as I'm essentially making the claim that I simply can't make sense of the proposition without reducing the words "religion" or "society" to a more specific term / lower level of abstraction. You deny this, so it should be easy change my mind.

As another intuition pump, what I have in my mind is some sort of graph with labels on the x and y axis; it's easy to imagine ways to do this for smoking (number of cigarettes smoked lifetime vs average age at death would be one possible way of doing it) but I am at a loss to imagining any such quantitative graph that has "religion" as the label on an axis.. what units are used.. is it nominal data e.g. using "religion" as a count noun?.. that sort of thing. Remember to do this without getting any more specific than "religion", as to do so would be to accept my entire argument.
Why can't atheists and theists meet somewhere in the middle? Quote
10-13-2014 , 10:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyboosh
Religion is a type of human behavior, one of many, so I think by saying religion I've already narrowed the scope down quite considerably to a very specific type of behaviour. .
This is a very odd definition of "religion".
Why can't atheists and theists meet somewhere in the middle? Quote
10-13-2014 , 10:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tame_deuces
While the statement about surveys being about perception is certainly true, and that this can color the data, this is not enough to conclude that survey data are without value.
I don't claim that survey data is without value. But in terms of its usefulness for determining something like "religion is a net negative" I think it's pretty useless.
Why can't atheists and theists meet somewhere in the middle? Quote
10-13-2014 , 10:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyboosh
Surely if the information wasn't useful, people wouldn't bother to gather it. Regardless of whether it's 'perception' or 'real', it has a practical use. I wonder if there's even a meaningful distinction between the two in this context. If someone thinks that believing something makes them happy (something impossible to prove or disprove), then it just does?

This study [World survey links religion and happiness -- for some] suggests that there is a positive correlation between religious belief and happiness in areas where 'circumstances are difficult'.



I think that these things could be replaced with secular alternatives but that's not the point, the point is that the effect that being religious is having on these people is measurable. A study of whether or not religion is a net-negative would have to include more elements than how it makes people feel but that woudl be an important part of it. You could also measure how much money religion generates and how that benefits societies, or how much war results from religious beliefs, or how much genuine Aid is the result of religious belief etc etc. These things can be assigned values and are measurable.
This is now straying quite far from where you started. You came into the conversation with the perspective that:

Quote:
Originally Posted by you
I regard most of the aspects of religion that people would generally consider to be positives (comfort, education etc) as negatives.
So as you post this "happiness survey" are we supposed to invert the axis just because you want it to be that way?
Why can't atheists and theists meet somewhere in the middle? Quote
10-13-2014 , 10:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zumby
This is a very odd definition of "religion".
Actually, for MB this is pretty standard. In many conversations in the past, he's taken very general statements and insisted that they apply very specifically to religion and not other modes of human thought or human behaviors.

He has also created very distinctive categories like "religious parenting" which is not how religious parents actually raise their kids but how he believes they should be raising their kids (which he then objects to).
Why can't atheists and theists meet somewhere in the middle? Quote
10-13-2014 , 12:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zumby
Sounds legit. I suggest you buy these two books which will give you access to the entirety of human knowledge:

Spoiler:




Would be an even better zinger if both books had the same author. Which they should by the way.
Why can't atheists and theists meet somewhere in the middle? Quote
10-13-2014 , 04:15 PM
I'll refrain from commenting, apart from noting that some people certainly do themselves a favor by serving their wit with pictures.
Why can't atheists and theists meet somewhere in the middle? Quote
10-13-2014 , 04:55 PM
Why can't atheists and theists meet somewhere in the middle? Quote

      
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