Who should have died? God the Father or God the Son?

John 3:35
The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

In our human world, it is custom for fathers to readily die for their children.
Given the choice, I do not know of any man that would not willingly save his son’s life by giving up his own. After all, we live for our children.
We often say that the sons should bury the fathers and consider it a great breach of the norm and an injustice for fathers to have to bury their sons.

If, on earth as it is in heaven has any meaningful truth to it, should God the Father not be the one to willingly die for His son?

If God is to be our example, are most of us ignoring His example and in that way breaking the first commandment by putting our own desires over His and thus placing some other idea above Him?

Regards
DL

Thing is, in Christianity people are toys. Uh, sorry, what I meant to say is "our purpose is to glorify God." So, yeah, it's the us making the sacrifices to the him.

You're not being rational OP. Its much easier to die yourself than to watch your kid die.

That is considered by most to be the biggest bad beat you can take.

In regards to this question, yes, many are putting themselves, sex, money, power, above God, these things becoming gods themselves.

As for your first question, good thinking on this part, I haven't seen this before. I cannot honestly answer your question in who would be more worthy to give up your life. Although Splendour does bring up a good point, it seems more 'giving' for a son to give his life up for his father.

However, taking it from a different angle, which of the Three Divine Persons was it most fitting to become incarnate, St. Thomas Aquinas has written on this very subject. It's very thick but if you want thick reading on this subject there you go.

If we find it is most fitting for the Son to become incarnate and thus give us His life for our sins, we will avoid the issue of whether or not it is morally better for a father to sacrifice himself for his son in the case of God.

Article 8
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4003.htm#article8

If that is your best answer you might note that it does not answer the question.

Regards
DL

It is quite rational. If you think not then show why not.
Chastisement without correction is just plain old cruelty.
Do you beat your children without telling them why?

I do thank you for your secular position. Do you hold a religious view?

Regards
DL

Thanks for this.
I think you misread Splendour though. I took it to mean that the father should step up.

Perhaps he was too busy looking for my irrationality to phrase his reply more coherently. perhaps he will clear it up for us.

Regards
DL

I think he meant that for a father to die for his son is easy. The Father wants to die before his son anyway.

A son to die for his father is more difficult, since he hasn't lived a long life yet or other reasons.

But yeah he can clear it up for us.

Jerok

It was rather thick.

If you Google virgin birth you will see why I do not buy God creating a chimera half breed Jesus for us.

It also assumes that his vicarious redemption was moral.

Why have you forsaken me is answered here.

Pro 21:3 To do justice and judgment [is] more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

Psa 49:7 None [of them] can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

Now look at what people who can think say about people ridding the cross instead of doing the right thing and helping carry the load..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mp9XIh-BPio

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoHP-f-_F9U

She did show why not...:

Firstly, Jesus is not a halfbreed. He is fully man and fully God.

Secondly, I would agree to do justice and judgment is more acceptable to God than sacrifice. God could have wiped us all out. However, God promised he would not wipe out the whole Earth again after Noah. So he sent his son to sacrifice himself for us that we might be saved.

Psalm 49:7 is speaking of us, saying we cannot redeem each other, but certainly God can redeem.

Finally, I skipped the first video with Hitchens but I watched the second. None of the verses he mentioned contradicts my belief in Jesus dying for our sins. Through his death God forgives the world. Jesus' crucifixion is beyond time, so any of those who were forgiven in the OT were forgiven through his death, as noone reaches Heaven except through Jesus.

What you are touching on is actually very important Catholic vs Protestant theology, and I agree with you. Many Protestants say if you say "I believe in Jesus Christ' they will be saved by his sacrifice. Catholics believe that you have to believe in Jesus AND repent, show your faith through works, in order to be infused with the grace and be forgiven. Those without contrite hearts will likely not be forgiven.

Why do Christians make such a big deal about the fact that Jesus had to suffer a humans death? Big whoop. Its not really "dying" if 3 days later your like, "hai guys, just kidding!". Plus, any human on this planet would go through what Jesus went through if they knew the reward that was waiting for them in the end.

Why God needs to put His supernatural son through this ridiculous pointless human act is beyond me.

Jesus 'knew' he would receive his reward as much as Christians 'know' they will receive theirs. At the end, he wasn't sure if God was just letting him die for no reason and didn't really want to do it. "Let this cup pass me by" 'why have You forsaken me.' But nevertheless, Jesus let God's will be done.

Jesus ran the gambit of human emotions - now God could say that He suffered like all of us, yet never once sinned. It's a great inspiriation to all of us, to show that a human can do it. Also, unblemished sacrifice was a big part of Jewish culture and God's law, so this was the ultimate sacrifice in this respect.

MONOtheism = one.

God the father------- 1
God the holy spirit---- 1
The God part of Jesus- 1
The man part of Jesus- 1

Hey, that makes four heads.

If Christians are to follow the Trinitarian view, they should have all three heads knowing all the same information. Scripture says they do not and even have us treating them differently with different penalties for cursing one over the other.

Even a lawyers brain would have a headache trying to keep up with those silly notions.

Regards
DL

It is beyond any thinking person.
Oops, did I just insult believers. Oh well. If the shoe fits.

You have to also remember that three days of R & R for an eternal being must have been quite a treat.
Variety is the spice of life.

Regards
DL

If Jesus did not sin then he could not be human.
Are all humans not born in sin?
Get your facts straight.

Regards
DL

You're just being obtuse. Adam and Eve were created without sin nature according to the Bible, they were obviously human.

It's one of the reasons Christ is referred to occasionally as 'the second Adam.'

Also, cute gimmick account. You make a new account, then you start a thread in RGT, then proceed to not stay on topic at all and just start airing out all the issues you have with Christianity like these things haven't already been discussed here ad nauseum.

Do you want to have a meaningful discussion, or are you just here because you felt like trolling?

"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23

"All Israel will be saved" Romans 11:26

"Filled with all Knowledge" Romans 15:14

Which are hyperboles, which are not? Answer: They all are.

Jesus never sinned, and he was still human; a testimony to what humans can do. You do not have to sin to be human, otherwise what are babies if not human?

And it doesn't undermine the passage anymore than those who are filled with 'all knowledge' do not know the 1 millionth decimal of pi.

I looked him up, he has the same account name on other religious forums with the same issues of Christianity, about Jesus being a 'chimera half-breed' so it seems it is not entirely gimmicky.

I tend to be wrongfully accused of trolling when the poster is too lazy to think.
It is a good way for them to hide the fact that their thinking is just not right.
It is mostly those who believe in talking animals and water walkers.

Regards
DL

Mark 10 v 18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.

Hebrews 5:8
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

We learn by our mistakes and sins.

Shall we reason or have a thumping contest?

Regards
DL

You never gave answers to my hyperbole quotes.

Mark 10:18 - Jesus doesn't like people judging, even himself, being human. He doesn't want people to call him good teacher because that would have them judge somebody else.

Hebrew 5:8 - Jesus learned through suffering, but he did not sin. A mistake is not the same thing as a sin - certainly Jesus could have made a chair wrong and learned the correct way from Joseph, but it was not a sin to make the chair wrong.

If one repents for sin, even God the Father sinned and used genocide on us in Noah's day to hide it.
It is hard on humans when God screws up.

Regards
DL

Def the father

Never send a boy to do a man's job.

Regards
DL