ALTER2EGO -to- SPLENDOUR:

It's right in front of you, and you can't figure it out? It says the Father "entrusted" or "committed" the power of judging to the Son. The fact that it required the Father to entrust/commit this authority to the son says one thing: the Son is inferior to the Father, because it is the Father that is ALLOWING the Son this authority.

Off topic, but the quoted post is almost identical to what my grandfather said to me about poker.

ALTER2EGO -to- SPLENDOUR:

Semantics will do you no good. You have put yourself in a BOX that you can't get out of. You're so badly off that you are now trying to explain the difference between the words "begotten" and "created." In other words, you are trying to explain away what the scriptures are actually saying. You are fighting against God's attempt to correct your thinking. Notice what the Bible says about Jesus Christ.

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstBORN of all creation;.." (Colossians 1:15)


"So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-BEGOTTEN son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth." (John 1:14)


DEFINITION OF BORN: "Born means having been given life."
http://www.yourdictionary.com/born


DEFINITION OF CREATE: "To cause to exist; bring into being."
http://education.yahoo.com/reference...y/entry/create
http://www.yourdictionary.com/create


DEFINITION OF BEGOTTEN: "Begotten means something created something else or someone fathered a child."
http://www.yourdictionary.com/begotten



As you can see, "born" and "begotten" and "create" all mean the same thing. All three expressions indicate the subject (in this case, Jesus Christ) was brought into existence before he even set foot on earth. Therefore, the pre-human Jesus HAD A BEGINNING. The Trinity dogma says the Son is CO-ETERNAL with the Father, meaning they existed at all times simultaneously.


Christendom's trinity, written in Article I of The Catholic Faith, is defined as follows:
"There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things both visible and indivisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three Persons, of ONE substance, power, and ETERNITY; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."


DEFINITION OF ETERNAL: Eternal means not having a beginning or an end.
http://www.yourdictionary.com/eternal


The scriptures at Colossians 1:15 and John 1:14 contradict Article I of the Catholic Faith. That false document describes Jesus being CO-ETERNAL with Jehovah, while the cited scriptures says the pre-human Jesus had a beginning. Specifically, both of those scriptures say the pre-human Jesus was "born" aka "begotten" aka "created." Furthermore, the words, "ONE ETERNITY" mean all three persons of the Trinity cannot die. The Bible says Jesus Christ died for three days, again proving this dogma to be a lie.


Who are you going to believe, Splendour? The Roman Catholics with their long history of polytheism and idolatry, or God's inspired Word, the Judeo-Christian Bible? Your fight to preserve the credibility of the Trinity dogma is not with me or with Jehovah's Witnesses who reject this falsehood but with God.

Actually, the phrase merely specifies that Jesus was present in the beginning, not that he was created at that point. God was also there in the beginning, but he was not created. If anything, the passage suggests that the Word was already there in the beginning; it says nothing about the creation of the Word that you're not reading into it.

If you said, "Hey, did you go to that party last weekend?" and I said, "Yeah, in the beginning I was there with my buddy Jason, but by the end of the night...."

Would you assume I had, in fact, created my friend Jason in that moment, or that he was there with me already?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alter2Ego 2.

So to be clear, you are stating that there is one god (Jehovah) who is the most powerful, and then (at least?) one more god beneath him in power/hierarchy. Two gods exist. Right?

Please feel free to deal with these issues at your leisure.

Also, if I am at all incorrect about your level of education/knowledge in Greek or Hebrew or anything else relevant to the time period when these works were created, by all means feel free to correct me.

Right now I assume you've never done any of your own direct reading/study/translation in Greek or Hebrew and are primarily regurgitating what you've been taught by JW teachers, or found on pro-JW websites on the internet.

Party foul, bro. The word "firstborn" in Colossians 1 is more accurately translated as "pre-eminent." The Greeks had one word for "pre-eminent" (used in in Colossians 1) and a different word for "first created" (not used in Colossians 1).

See Gen. 41:51-52, Pslam 89:20, and Jerimiah 31:9 for other times in the Bible "firstborn" is used NOT to mean "first created."

Alternatively, you can also check out the Greek in Luke 2:7 if you want an example of a time when the Greek word for "first created" is used instead of "pre-eminent."

I'm genuinely interested to hear your answer.

ALTER2EGO -to- WIZARD:

Based upon our past exchanges as well as the personal comments you've made about me and my religious affiliation, I believe you're not "genuinely interested" in anything I have to say. You've made up your mind to reject any and everything I say.

Below are a few samples of your harsh statements which I view as personal attacks. You made no attempt to explain to the forum why you disagreed with any of the many scriptures I cited in this thread. Instead, you attacked me--personally. Therefore, I will not be responding to you again. You are being added to my "Ignore" list forthwith.

Nice usage of the word 'forthwith'. Tomorrow, try to squeeze in 'brobdingnagian'.

Yes, I think you're a heretic, blasphemer, false teacher, wolf, and under demonic teaching. I also don't think you're a Christian. I am still genuinely interested in your answer, because I can only think of a few far fetched ways to reconcile it with your false doctrine.

These are all things I don't say lightly, and only to self-proclaimed Christians.

ALTER2EGO -to- STARVING WRITER82:

No, I'll pass. You go ahead and "check out the Greek" by doing your hop, skip, and jump routine in which you are trying--in vain--to explain away what's meant by "firstborn of ALL creation". I supposed you think "only begotten" also means "pre-eminent." Never mind that the word "begotten" like the word "born" refers to created beings.

DEFINITION OF BEGOTTEN: "Begotten means something created something else or someone fathered a child."
http://www.yourdictionary.com/begotten

You may continue your discussion with Wizard-50 and others who support your position, as I'm not interested in entertaining you further. I've exchanged a total of 4 very detailed posts with you on this topic. Since the conversation is going nowhere, my work with you is done where this topic is concerned.



I will respond to a few more posts from other people in this thread, and then I'll be done with those individuals as well. If new faces show up, I will exchange a few posts with them likewise and then cut them loose. I'm not going to waste too much of my time with people who don't want to reason on the scriptures.

You would lay 10-1 that God prefers people studying unprovable details abouut himself rather than studying how to improve mankind's situation on earth?

Don't stop now. If you follow the numbers you might get the picture as intended.

I think God wants whichever one best glorifies God.

First point: If you're trying to use the Colossians 1 "firstborn" to mean "first created" when the Greek very clearly says "pre-eminent" and not "first created," that mistake is on you, not me. I don't know if you just aren't aware of the Greek text or if you're wilfully spreading disinformation, but in either case, trying to use Colossians 1 to say Jesus was created is simply incorrect.

Second point: You cite four posts worth of interaction with me, but in those posts, you often sidestepped the main point of my posts, promising to "deal with it in a future post," including how many gods there are in the universe (from John 1:1) and why God is referred to as plural (Elohim) thousands of times in the Old Testament when the word for a singular god (El) also exists but is used far less commonly.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but all I see here is a guy who, once confronted with difficult information, opts to back out of the conversation rather than continue. So far, you've cherry picked my posts, given surface level answers where convenient, and ignored the rest.

Within the link ( http://penei.org/besora-trinity.shtml ), there is a useful section "Vocabulary Comparison", using scripturally appropriate ( IMHO, more accurate ) vocabulary concerning specfic statements related to but not supporting the doctrine of the Trinity, especially when communicating with people that are raised Jewish ( I've omitted the example verses/scriptural references for brevity ):


Scripturally appropriate vocabulary / Traditional ( "Christian" ) vocabulary
================================================

Yeshua is divine. / Yeshua is G-d.

Yeshua came from G-d. / Yeshua came from the Father.

Yeshua has a G-d. / Yeshua has a Father.

Yeshua is the Son of G-d. Accepting Yeshua is the right way to accept the Father and receive good things. / Yeshua is the Son of the Father. Accepting Yeshua is the right way to accept the Father and receive good things.

Sometimes the Holy Spirit is spoken of as Yeshua's. Sometimes it is spoken of as G-d's. / Sometimes the Holy Spirit is spoken of as Yeshua's. Sometimes it is spoken of as the Father's.

The word "G-d" refers only to the Father. / The word "Father" refers only to the Father.

Yeshua ( although divine ) is not G-d. / Yeshua ( although G-d ) is not the Father.

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Of course, some Trinitarians will refuse to use the more accurate and less offensive terminology; bear in mind that various types of supersessionism is common among "Christians".


Consider also the earliest formulation of the Nicene Creed ( from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed ) in 325 CE, which in part, corroborates with 1 Cor 8:6 :

First Council of Nicea (325)
====================

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;

By whom all things were made [both in heaven and on earth];

Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man;

He suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven;

From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

And in the Holy Ghost.

[But those who say: 'There was a time when he was not;' and 'He was not before he was made;' and 'He was made out of nothing,' or 'He is of another substance' or 'essence,' or 'The Son of God is created,' or 'changeable,' or 'alterable'—they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church.]
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