In before 144,000 on alter2ego's ignore list.

Wheeee.

What are there, maybe 30 consistent posters in RGT? She's almost got half of them on ignore....and it's everyone else's fault.

LOL

I find it funny that christians are hating on Alter2Ego for interpreting the bible, and then sticking to that interpretation, while they themselves all the time are interpreting the bible and sticking to their interpretation.
Maybe thats why theres so much hate, because A2E is living proof that there are infinite ways of interpreting the bible, and no-one can really know what the correct interpretation is. I guess it would bring up a lot of fear.

I don't label myself "Christian" and don't hate Alter2Ego but hate some of the teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses. I don't think it's funny either because the teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses will lead others away from the truth of the "gospel of Jesus Christ". More importantly, if someone is in a "teaching ministry" and what is being taught is contrary to the truth and causes others to be led astray, not only is the "teacher" going to face judgment, but many of those led astray.

Jehovah's Witnesses do challenge believers in understanding why they believe what they believe as others have said. The great majority of "Christian believers" simply don't read "the bible" and don't have a clear understanding of the teachings of the Messiah and the apostle Shaul, so some "Christians" can be "blown and tossed by the wind" and fall into the hands of false teaching. Even if there are infinitely many ways ( which I would argue against; IMHO, there are really only finitely many ) of interpreting "the bible", there are some that are incorrect, and the early believers knew several of the most widespread false beliefs and attempted to make this clear through creedal statements.

What is difficult is to actually love these people and that is one of the great challenges. Every believer knows that he/she was once in a similar condition and only through the grace of "G-d" and the Spirit of Truth can we know the true "gospel of Jesus Christ".


1 Jn 4:18 (NASB)

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

My point was, that both of your views of "truth" are down to interpretation of the bible, in which case, both are equally valid. why are you so sure that their interpretation is false, and yours is true?


Challenging beliefs is a good thing, no?


How do you know theirs are false and yours are true?

As I pointed out earlier. It's not that JWs have their own interpretation
of the Bible. They didn't like what the Bible said, so they wrote their
own. See the John 1:1 divinity of Jesus controversy. They also
make up lots of stuff that isn't in the Bible, and disagrees with what
the Bible says, e.g. that Jesus was actually Michael the archangel in
disguise.

So, to say that JWs just have their own interpretation of the Bible is
extremely misleading.

Im sure that they can point to the bible to support their beliefs. Alter2Ego?

I disagree with what I've bolded above. The only correct interpretation is what the author intended to his audience. In the case of the epistle to the Colossians, one of the main purposes for Shaul to write this letter was to refute heresy ( it can be inferred by reading the entire epistle ); in the case of the "gospel of John", the purpose is stated within the account in Jn 20:31. Sometimes, there is hardly anything to interpret, because we can understand the plain meaning of the text ( the "Peshat" from PaRDeS interpretation from Jewish exegesis ). Some of the common inferences can be incorrect simply because we're using an English translation rather than trying to understand the original text of what is stated ( for biblical literature, this would be either Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic ) and this can be challenging for some of the writings in the New Testament: most of the authors were Jewish, who likely spoke and thought in Hebrew terms, but the text is in Greek!

In the case of some words, we use the context to understand what the meaning of the word can be based on the intended message the author was trying to convey. Then, if our understanding is close to correct, it should match up quite closely with the understanding of others if they are also attempting to translate the original text to a modern language such as English. If we've done a reasonable job, not only should we have a decent translation of the main message, but we should be able to get the correct inferences. If one of the inferences we've obtained seems to be in sharp disagreement with the majority of believers, then, it's likely we've made a mistake.

In the case of the belief that the "Word was a created being", the idea is that the use of the Greek word translated as "firstborn" in English when used in isolation certainly gives the impression ( at least from a human perspective ), that Yeshua was "born" and the "first" of those "born"; however, if we take that to definitely mean "created", then we're ignoring what Shaul ( "Paul" ) wrote in the following verse, essentially that "by him [ the Word ], all things were created: things in heaven and on earth,...; all things were created by him and for him." ( from Col 1:16 ). In addition, we have the text of Jn 1:3 that essentially states that all things came into being through "the Word". We also have the testimony of early "Church Fathers" and what they believe and the early creeds to indicate what later "Christians" believe concerning "the Word" ( in the First Council of Nicea, 325 ): for example, from the Wikipedia article ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed ):

[But those who say: 'There was a time when he was not;' and 'He was not before he was made;' and 'He was made out of nothing,' or 'He is of another substance' or 'essence,' or 'The Son of God is created,' or 'changeable,' or 'alterable'—they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church.]

So if the inference ( that "the Word was created" ) is incorrect, the source of the problem may be the misunderstanding of what the word translated as "firstborn" in English could mean; that is why some translators will use either "preeminent" or "supreme" to try to render the meaning of the sentence more accurately in English to reflect the intended meaning of the author. This shouldn't be a surprise, because even if Shaul were writing this letter in Greek, his thinking was Jewish and it was likely that many of the intended recipients were also thinking in Jewish terms.

I wouldn't say that unequivocally that "my interpretation is true". I would rather say that a specific inference of a passage from a specific English translation was not true. The inference "the Word was created" is radically different from the message that Shaul was trying to convey to the congregation at Colosse concerning the nature of Yeshua, "the Word".

Depends if that will get people to understand the reasons behind specific beliefs. If it ( "challenging beliefs" ) is done in the wrong way, without mutual respect and love, it certainly can be not "a good thing". If done in the correct way, as Yeshua did, it can lead to a deeper understanding and more truth.

Usually, for me at least, it's discernable from the "fruit of the Spirit": if there is the Spirit of Truth involved, usually this means that one can test the truth or it's a truth that others should be able to see and examine for themselves. Also, it seems quite clear that Yeshua ( "Jesus" ) had an open-door policy in that he would field questions from anybody and answer them. Some of those answers were hard ( not just difficult but very difficult to accept as truth ) and offensive to many who were listening. Yeshua also didn't care if he lost a lot of "disciples"/followers: e.g., Jn 6:25-71 esp. vv. 60-66. Yeshua cared for the truth.

I don't think anyone's hating on her.

They hate her false teaching.

False teachings are one of the main ways HaSatan steals people's birthright.

A lot of people in this world are out of touch about where they've come from and where they are going. Especially atheists. They spend all their time asking questions not being able to identify anything even when it's spelled out to them over and over again. Instead they raise objections to the explanations.

Finding your roots are very important in life. Haven't you ever watched that show "Finding Your Roots" on tv?

Most people don't dig enough into their roots. If they did they'd find out Jesus was the root of both Jesse and David and then they might figure out what that means.

And how do I know there is a HaSatan?

Because Jesus said so. Jesus came down from the Father in Heaven and if anybody knew him, he did.

Not only does the Watch Tower Society write their own translation, that translation has been changed many times to hide the truth: namely, they are changing the NWT on a regular basis to have the NWT more closely line up with some of the incorrect theological beliefs they hold.

What is really unfortunate, from what little I've read of Jehovah's Witnesses, is that many "JWs" seem to think that their translation is the only correct one(!) -- a ridiculous assertion to make because this translation did not exist in the time of Yeshua ( "Jesus" ) or in the time of Moshe ( "Moses" ).

The NWT is a flawed translation and one should expect to get flawed interpretations from "JWs" as well.

Mangler, thanks for the thorough reply.

I am not a biblical scholar, so maybe I shouldnt be commenting at all. From an outsiders perspective, it just seems like you are both referring to the same book and saying, Im right, your wrong.

I guess I will just leave it up to you two to resolve( or not) your conflict

This is why it's so frustrating to me that A2E claims to be a Christian.

Why is that? I'm not entirely sure there are any core beliefs that one must have to be under the umbrella of Christian. RLK has already said that you can believe Jesus was just a man (and only a man) and still be a Christian, so I'm not sure some disagreements over lesser theologies matter so much.