They already have it
100 years
500 years
1000 years
10,000 years
100,000 years
Never

Are the penalties too severe for it to ever be a real possibility?

Must the catalyst come from within, or can external influences be effective?

There are over 6 million Muslims in the U.S. Do you think they aren't able to practice freedom of or from religion?

There is no penalty. What are you referring to?

Change is usually internal.

Is this a true statement?

In Islam’s history, the vast majority of scholars have held that apostasy in Islam is a crime punishable with the death penalty, typically after a waiting period to allow the apostate time to repent and return to Islam.

From the same page as what appears to be the primary source of the first part of that statement:

https://books.google.com/books?id=Hv...page&q&f=false

I've heard an interesting definition of religion recently that states religion means bonded obligation to God.

If one reads the Torah, the unarguable obligation that the Abrahamic God would have his subjects perform is the legal structure given from which to govern their nation/tribe. By honoring his laws, you honor Him as God.

I don't think it's too far of a stretch to say that whomevers laws you implement is effectively whom you've esteemed to be God.

To the question, "When and how will Muslims ever be able to practice "freedom of and freedom from religion"? That's like asking 'when will Muslims, or anyone for that matter, be able to live without any rules or laws?' Viewed correctly, this obviously needs no answer.

If you asked the question of whether or not Arabs will ever forsake their concepts of Sharia law and regard western political philosophers as their Gods - I'm inclined to say no because the Hadiths have the appearance of a legal system, and in reality, this is their foremost holy texts. Very few Muslims reject the authority of the Hadith collections.

However, if Christians can be convinced that God's laws in the Torah aren't authoritative, perhaps Muslims could be convinced that the Hadiths and Torah aren't authoritative, thus rendering them mere slogan chanters as well, considering the Koran by itself is insufficient to form a comprehensive legal system.

Which countries still outlaw apostasy and blasphemy?

The discussion is more complicated than mere category. There are secular countries with a lot of non-secular politics (the US), and there are non-secular countries with mainly secular politics (for example Denmark). I use countries without a majority of Muslims to demonstrate the point, because it gets tedious when you can't say anything without stumbling into some imagined controversy.

There has been and are countries with a predominantly Muslim population which has secular constitutions and practice freedom of religion. Still, it also bears mention that some of these countries have been plagued by cultural, political and legal movements who want that to end, nor should one deny that in many countries with predominantly Muslim populations there is not freedom of religion (sometimes formally, sometimes informally), and often this can be tied directly to religion (both through legal and political tradition).

In addition in many countries citizens have to fear violent mobs appearing at their door steps for real or imagined slights against the predominant religion.

It's going to be very difficult for Islam to reform, in my opinion. It's always returned to a type of religious fascism. Being the center of a huge trading empire liberalized and civilized parts of Islam for a time, as did colonization by Western powers. In the absence of those forces, it's been a self sustaining, indeed growing, xenophobic religion.

Most people who grow up in Islam never even get the chance to see outside. It takes over all facets of life. Apart from what is prescribes (3-5x daily prayer, various rituals, avoidance of outsiders), which chain the mind to its practices and beliefs, the women are oppressed, and the men have an enormous self interest in keeping the status quo.

Perhaps technology will change things. Right now, it seems to be a force for increasing Islam's stickiness, rather than decreasing.
I think external factors are relevant, in countries where there's not a majority. For example, much of the Western left wing commentariat, academia, politicians are philosophically stuck in an evidence-abandoning cultural relativism, the logical consequence of which is pushing a fiction of victimhood as a cause for problems within Islam. That colonization caused it. That the West is bad/evil/no better than anyone else, and not worth saving. Etc. When the truth is that the West is actually one of the few lights of the world, a miracle of human genius and optimism and struggle that leaves every other culture back in the Stone Ages in terms of its superior achievements.

If we taught that the West is the best of the world, that Islamic ideals and practices are deeply inferior on political, social, philosophical, economic and human levels, I think it would have a ripple effect. Young men from these countries, used to strength from leaders and certainty from preachers and the Koran, seek strength, and a sure vision, and the West is falling over itself to assure them that no, we're the problem, not you! What are they supposed to think? A weak, self-loathing culture has no power to change minds.

Like a codependent relationship, telling people that their sickness is just fine merely sustains a sick culture. You need to provide a strong alternative narrative and way of looking at the world. There needs be a realistic philosophical discussion about what Islam is, where it's good and where it's weird and disgusting and broken. Christianity had that, and the world became a better place for it. But Christianity is a much easier nut than Islam, because Christianity is nutty nasty book + Jesus (hope, love, peace, non-judgment) as the last example of a good life and prophetic message, whereas Islam is nutty nasty book + brutal xenophobic warlord as the last example of a good life and prophetic message.

And interestingly, a majority of Muslims nearly everywhere believe in the ability to practice religious freedom, if you didn't start out a Muslim. The Koran actually gives this ability. If you're not a Muslim and want to practice something like Christianity, you're fairly well protected (legally at least) even in the more religious-fascist states, and most people are on your side on not having to become a Muslim (provided you pay the tax, have a lower social/legal status compared to Muslims, etc).

For people born Muslim, it's a much uglier state of affairs; 1/3 of all Muslims - nearly 600 million people - believe that people should be killed for leaving the religion. A far larger number would shun and spurn those that leave Islam, including close family members. I don't know how penetrate such widespread bigotry and totalitarianism. It's really tragic.

Attitudes towards freedom of religion for muslims in Saudi Arabia vs. Indonesia vs. America are three totally different things. I think people have a tendency to look at Islam the same way that they look at the Catholic Church from 1,000 years ago.

What? This is not Islam, this is Christian demonization of Islam. Such doesn't happen.

But yes, if you live in a country or emirate that is effectively Islamic or if you are within the reach of judgment by such...

The laws stand within and without and problems are solved internally. What you see in media is not fit for bird****. Sure, judgments are swift, violent, and at times pretty visceral but they work. Women and children are the safest and most valuable things within the reach of all that Islam can cover.

Muhammad would not exist without his daughter. And you'd be surprised at how matriarchal Islam is.

But... More for us.


For Murkans no read write goodest.