I don't have time to get to the end of this with you before I leave.

If the claim cannot be measured, then it's not real.

And if it's not real, then it doesn't exist.

And if it doesn't exist, why should I believe anything that you say?

-- And if your claim can be measured, then you're measuring an idea, and so there's no problem any more from my side.

You've *got* to push past your naive philosophy if you're ever going to have anything interesting to say. And I don't mean reading 30 seconds on something you just looked up and assuming that it means what you need it to mean in order to try to make your point. I mean really thinking about this stuff and taking a very serious look at how you structure your statements and beliefs.

Otherwise, you're just going to sound like you have no idea what you're saying all the time.

This goes back to my ideas don't exist. they are just conceptual.

LOL, the irony.

lol its ok Wrig Astley we know what you are talking about all the time.

sending it to you in a pm because I don't want to talk about "riggie nonsense" in this thread and get another infraction.

nice to see I have my very first troll pet though.

Your Pm was very insightful, I have no idea why you were afraid to get an infraction for the worthless nonsense you wrote. (Who's afraid of infractions anyway?)

I was just pointing out the irony in aaaaarons posts, dunno why you jumped on it and converted it into some worthless riggie talk.

be well and remember: If anything happens, it's all part of gods big plan.

thanks.. I think

at the very least, I now believe you are capable of communication without a profanity laced post.

would you like me to pm you if anything happens . ?

edit: as for being afraid of infractions - I have been banned on forums before without even a warning, just getting used to this system - - I don't know why its hard for you to see that I would want a clean slate with no infractions.

As far as the question of "What God is or isn't" goes, this is how I think about it:

If God exists, then God must fit the definition of God, the criteria of which is a being that is infinite, eternal, omnipotent, and omniscient.

The traditional, Western, Judeo-Christian conception is one of a transcendent God, one that meets the above criteria but is distinct from the rest of the universe and certainly distinct from life forms and especially human beings. This notion of God is much like a Zeus figure, and is reflected by Michelangelo's portrayal of God on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel in the Vatican.

The other conception of God -- and the one I prefer -- is closer to the idea of the Tao, which is an understanding of God as an immanent entity that permeates the observable universe and is one with all that is material, including living things.

Adopting the second notion obv allows for a much more flexible understanding of God's nature, but given that we really have no way of comprehending or even imagining what divinity looks like, I see no reason not to allow an extremely flexible definition. Maybe God is the universe and the universe is God, and we literally exist in God. Maybe God is love, in the most literal sense possible. These sorts of radical notions can't be discounted because if we're going to take the idea of the divine seriously -- which is totally beyond our capacity for comprehension, let alone sensory perception or scientific evidence -- we have no reason to believe that one version might be better than another since the whole discussion effectively takes place in left field to begin with.

Some nice thoughts here. The idea "god is love" is one that I've studied. To go further, the idea that the kingdom of heaven is love and this kingdom exists inside us is mentioned in ancient writings.

God can exist without being omnipotent omniscient or omnipresent

Nailed it.

Can non-existent things have influence in the universe? Do ideas have the capacity to impact reality in some tangible way?

Doubt I've been to all 4 corners of the universe but I know what you are getting at and I like the question, at some time and place in the universe I would have to say (my answer) is yes.

I wouldn't think so but maybe. Doesn't matter because our ideas don't impact the universe. What we because of our ideas do.

Lets say there are no brains left. All thinking things die tomorrow.. What happens to ideas? Do they still impact the universe?

This makes no sense. Can you rephrase your statement?

Let's say the idea was to build CERN, and it created a black hole. Then yes.

Also, the question itself is pretty stupid in the sense that we can just remove any type of matter from the universe and ask whether they still have impact on the universe to end up with a meaningless statement.

Sorry, was tired when I typed that. I meant to say, what we do with our ideas impacts the universe... not the ideas themselves.

The cern is the only thing effecting the universe in you example, not the idea. Also, your second example isn't relevant to my point. The human dies the idea dies, the same thing can not be said about the matter attached to the human. The matter goes on to effect the universe for eternity in some way.

Do you think the number 2 would exist without physical objects?

But ideas cause people to do and make things. It seems really weird (and outright false) to say that ideas have no influence over reality.

Push it a step backwards. I can tell if you're being intentionally dense or just not thinking clearly.

This is meaningless to me. This is like talking to a stoned college student.

Yes. Do you think the number 2 exists with physical objects?

What he is saying makes perfect sense. You are being very rude and patronising fwiw.

Not really. Even physicalists admit the existence of ideas as being real as understood as electrical impulses in the brain. If I say "I have an idea" or "I'm thinking of a number" what that means is that some neurons just fired in a certain way. But to completely deny ideas as having any reality at all is just dumb.

Thanks. I'm aware. He's earning it with his naive nonsense. If the average stoned college student can think of it, it's probably a really bad philosophical position to hold.

Aaron, if it can be measured it exists. This whole conversation started with you saying ideas can't be measured. You are now saying they can. So if they can then yes, they exist.

No, it relies on physical objects. The number 2 does not exist. Only an object with another object exist.

Just... No. Don't do this crap.

...

Stop being an idiot.

fair enough. I forgot you like to continually avoid questions and instead just hint at what you think so you can later backpeddle.

we will start over.. Do ideas exist? and can they be measured?

I had an idea, the same idea, many many times. Does the idea still exist ? Can you .. or even i measure it ?

I think of ideas as a process of creating something that doesn't exist but could exist, sometimes they (ideas) get lost in a filter type of thing and sometimes these ideas create something.

On the other hand, ideas come and go and the word idea exists in the dictionary, so you could argue either way on this one i think.