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| Religion, God, and Theology Discussion of God, religion, faith, theology, and spirituality. |
06-25-2012, 12:01 AM
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#136
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adept
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Finland
Posts: 1,116
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Re: What good argument in there that God exists?
Doesn't everyone believe or know there is God, these days? The believers do, and the scientists do. The latter because they know natural sciences like chemistry and known that everything follows their laws, that there is "God" in everything. The game is over these days, people not being that retarded (IQ below 80 or so) anymore that they would think that God is something outside of the universe and from there rules all things and it has never been like that in the original religions or even in any religion, and many philosophers have known it and pointed it out for thousands of years already.
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06-25-2012, 12:16 AM
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#137
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True Facts
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Dexter's table
Posts: 8,940
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Re: What good argument in there that God exists?
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Originally Posted by 6471849653
Doesn't everyone believe or know there is God, these days? The believers do, and the scientists do. The latter because they know natural sciences like chemistry and known that everything follows their laws, that there is "God" in everything. The game is over these days, people not being that retarded (IQ below 80 or so) anymore that they would think that God is something outside of the universe and from there rules all things and it has never been like that in the original religions or even in any religion, and many philosophers have known it and pointed it out for thousands of years already.
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Define God.
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06-25-2012, 03:22 AM
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#138
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journeyman
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 337
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Re: What good argument in there that God exists?
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Originally Posted by Original Position
I feel like my point is just getting ignored here.
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No, I understand. I just don’t think what you’re saying has an impact on my argument.
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Yes, I am not denying that (~C) is a contradiction, and if an atheist asserts it when assuming your definition of god, then they contradicting themselves. However...
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But that’s the end of my argument. That is, to avoid contradiction and accepting theists’ terms, atheists can’t affirm and must deny “(~C) God is non-existent,” and must affirm and can’t deny “(C) God exists.” Assuming theists will avoid contradiction and accept their own definition of God, they’ll do the same.
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06-25-2012, 08:06 AM
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#139
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 4,515
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Re: What good argument in there that God exists?
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Originally Posted by duffee
No, I understand. I just don’t think what you’re saying has an impact on my argument.
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The nature of discussion is that you share your thoughts with others. Obviously I think it defeats your argument. If you disagree, you should say why.
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But that’s the end of my argument. That is, to avoid contradiction and accepting theists’ terms, atheists can’t affirm and must deny “(~C) God is non-existent,” and must affirm and can’t deny “(C) God exists.” Assuming theists will avoid contradiction and accept their own definition of God, they’ll do the same.
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Nope. Atheists can deny (~C) and (C). I.e. They can affirm this statement:
"Not God exists."
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06-25-2012, 09:35 AM
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#140
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banned
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 715
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No one knows. If you think you know then you are dumb.
If there were a god, I would ask him what came before him.
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06-25-2012, 02:36 PM
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#141
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 4,515
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Re: What good argument in there that God exists?
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Originally Posted by Original Position
The nature of discussion is that you share your thoughts with others. Obviously I think it defeats your argument. If you disagree, you should say why.
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On second thought--never mind. I'm pretty sure I know where you're going anyway and am not that interested.
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06-26-2012, 02:34 AM
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#142
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journeyman
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 337
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Re: What good argument in there that God exists?
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Originally Posted by Original Position
Nope. Atheists can deny (~C) and (C). I.e. They can affirm this statement:
"Not God exists [is logically necessary]."
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fyp
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06-30-2012, 10:37 PM
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#143
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stranger
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 12
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Re: What good argument in there that God exists?
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Originally Posted by duffee
I don’t think the atheist can accept the theist’s terms without ceding the argument.
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So whatever it is the atheist is thinking of as non-existent; it’s not God. Just as whatever one is thinking of as non-rational is not man, or whatever one is thinking of as married is not a bachelor.
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You're not a little concerned that this makes it impossible to deny the existence of my necessary mandate to rule the world?
I'm defining it as necessary you see, so if you think you're challenging it, you've misunderstood and are actually challenging something else.
Tithes can be made via paypal.
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06-30-2012, 11:14 PM
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#144
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journeyman
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 322
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Re: What good argument in there that God exists?
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Originally Posted by duffee
I don’t think the atheist can accept the theist’s terms without ceding the argument. (A) Man is rational animal.
(B) A bachelor is an unmarried man.
(C) God exists. Since the predicates of A, B and C are included in the definition of their respective subjects (accepting the theists’ terms) the propositions are logically necessary, i.e. it’s not logically possible they’re false. Likewise, their negations… (~A) Man is non-rational animal.
(~B) A bachelor is a married man.
(~C) God is non-existent. … are logically impossible, i.e. it’s not logically possible they’re true, and hence, they’re inconceivable. So whatever it is the atheist is thinking of as non-existent; it’s not God. Just as whatever one is thinking of as non-rational is not man, or whatever one is thinking of as married is not a bachelor.
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This is what Hashem ( "YHWH G-d" ) makes clear in his name revealed to Moshe ( from Ex 3 ): Ehyeh asher ehyeh (Hebrew: אהיה אשר אהיה) which is sometimes rendered in English as "I will be who I will be" or as expressed in the Greek LXX as " ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν " ~ "I am The Being". Hashem necessarily "exists" and then the ontological question is what is the nature of "existence" and is this nature of the "existence" for Hashem in an altogether different category.
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07-01-2012, 02:18 AM
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#145
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journeyman
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 337
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Re: What good argument in there that God exists?
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Originally Posted by mangler241
This is what Hashem ( "YHWH G-d" ) makes clear in his name revealed to Moshe ( from Ex 3 ): Ehyeh asher ehyeh (Hebrew: אהיה אשר אהיה) which is sometimes rendered in English as "I will be who I will be" or as expressed in the Greek LXX as " ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν " ~ "I am The Being". Hashem necessarily "exists" and then the ontological question is what is the nature of "existence"
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I think, to exist is to be knowable, and that which is knowable is knowledge. So, the nature of existence is knowledge.
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and is this nature of the "existence" for Hashem in an altogether different category.
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Taking “category” loosely, I’d say no, because that which is in God (knowledge) is God (Divine knowledge). I would say, however, that God’s existence is in a different mode. I.e. as the particular is to the universal, and individual knowledge is to the All-knowing, an individual being is to All-being. Same category, different modes.
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07-01-2012, 11:12 AM
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#146
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 5,368
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Re: What good argument in there that God exists?
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Originally Posted by duffee
that which is knowable is knowledge.
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No. A horse and the concept of a horse are different things. Assuming your previous contention, I will grant the restatement that the existence of a horse means the concept of a horse is conceivable. But the horse does not become a concept as a result of this, it is still a horse.
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07-01-2012, 12:50 PM
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#147
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journeyman
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 337
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Re: What good argument in there that God exists?
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Originally Posted by uke_master
No. A horse and the concept of a horse are different things. Assuming your previous contention, I will grant the restatement that the existence of a horse means the concept of a horse is conceivable. But the horse does not become a concept as a result of this, it is still a horse.
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I distinguish between intellectual knowledge and rational knowledge. Intellectual knowledge is where we know a being is a being or that it is, whereas rational knowledge is to proceed from one understanding to another determining what it is.
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07-01-2012, 12:59 PM
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#148
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 5,368
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Re: What good argument in there that God exists?
So? Even if I accepted your dichotomy as meaningful and well defined (I don't), neither side of the dichotomy helps your claim that an entity, like a horse, being knowable implies that the entity IS knowledge. I suspect a linguistic confusion. Knowledge of either variety represents states of the mind (or, on monism, states of the brain) and a state of the mind that conceives of a horse is simply different from an entity like a horse.
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07-01-2012, 09:23 PM
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#149
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journeyman
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 322
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Re: What good argument in there that God exists?
Quote:
Originally Posted by duffee
I think, to exist is to be knowable, and that which is knowable is knowledge. So, the nature of existence is knowledge.
Taking “category” loosely, I’d say no, because that which is in God (knowledge) is God (Divine knowledge). I would say, however, that God’s existence is in a different mode. I.e. as the particular is to the universal, and individual knowledge is to the All-knowing, an individual being is to All-being. Same category, different modes.
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The first sentence is not altogether correct: Hashem exists and He does know Himself; however, Hashem is not "knowledge" ( Christians might also loosely point out 1 Cor 13:8 ).
Hashem's existence is unlike the existence of physical objects, human beings, abstract mathematical entities, philosophical concepts and even spiritual beings and all of these "exist" in some "category". Human beings may have better understanding through anthropomorphisms and analogies; however, they are only useful constructs and not all that is "divine" is necessarily expressible in human language.
1) Hashem's existence is necessary; 2) everything that physically exists depends on Hashem; and 3) He manifests Himself in the real world ( makes his "existence" known in the world ) through "Word" and "Action". These are some common theological beliefs which seem to indicate that the existence of Hashem ("G-d") is unlike the existence of anything else, i.e., the kind of existence that is uniquely Hashem's.
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07-02-2012, 12:21 AM
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#150
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journeyman
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 337
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Re: What good argument in there that God exists?
Quote:
Originally Posted by uke_master
So? Even if I accepted your dichotomy as meaningful and well defined (I don't), neither side of the dichotomy helps your claim that an entity, like a horse, being knowable implies that the entity IS knowledge. I suspect a linguistic confusion. Knowledge of either variety represents states of the mind (or, on monism, states of the brain) and a state of the mind that conceives of a horse is simply different from an entity like a horse.
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I’m not asserting “a horse is knowledge.” I said, “ to exist is to be knowable, and that which is knowable is knowledge.”
Last edited by duffee; 07-02-2012 at 12:33 AM.
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