Then why do you say you would not want to sit through it? I honestly don't understand.

I think it is improbable both from an evolutionary standpoint, and even if you are a creationist. The chances that 4.5 Billion years of random mutations, natural selection, trees falling, an ancestor escaping a predator, culminating in the precise sperm and egg that fertilized to create exactly 'YOU' is extremely improbable. And even if you don't accept this process, then it surely must be much more probable that god could have created someone else in your place, rather than you. No?

Before I can realize the magnitude of my error, I would first need to know which version/interpretation you believe. Am I jeopardizing eternity? Or how I spend eternity? Some people think I will have eternity, but that I'll spend it in agonizing hell. Others believe that I will have eternity, but it will not be in the presence of god, which is their version of hell. Lastly, some believe that good people go to heaven while everyone else simply ceases to exist. So I'd need to know which of these fates you imagine I'll be facing then I can say how big of an error I'm making if you're right.

Our situation will be the same. Exactly as it was 150 years ago. 1000 years ago. Or 10,000,000,000 years ago. This might sound condescending, but the pity comes from theists thinking they really won't die when they most certainly will. It's the same sort of pity I feel for people who think they can sing, but are terrible at it. Or someone who thinks their lover is faithful when they aren't. Or a child who thinks there's a Santa when there isn't. Etc., etc.

Part of my pity stemmed from my (incorrectly) thinking you would not place enough importance on this life. But you did a reasonable job of explaining why this life should be very important if it affects your chances of an eternal life. So importance, I get. What I still don't get is how you can have a proper appreciation of this life when you think it is a microcosm of your overall existence. Forget importance for a sec... How do you appreciate the joys of life when you think they will pale compared to a perfect existence that will last forever?

The Christian description of heaven seems like hell to me. The joy of sex, a good meal, a drink of water when you're thirsty are how we derive pleasure. Without pain and imperfection how can you ever experience joy? Yet, heaven is perfect, right? No need for hunger. No need for sex. No urges to sate and nothing to improve upon or work towards. I can't think of a more hellish existence than that. Of course, that's just my personal view and I don't expect to convince you. But I would be interested in how you think a perfect existence wouldn't turn into a hellish existence over an eternity.

I'm not disagreeing with the sentiment here, but I think this is evidence of the point I made somewhere regarding the problem of evil and judgments of God's creation in general. For any alternative kind of creation you might come up with for us to live in there would be some people complaining that life in such a world would suck.

PairTheBoard

So what about the miracles? I'm sure you don't think the sun (actually Earth) stood still. But you also apparently don't think the events that the Pope uses to elevate someone to sainthood broke the laws of physics either. So why call yourself a Catholic?

I don't think scientific minded theists find it implausible. It doesn't seem implausible to me. I think it strikes different people differently. That's just how it evidently strikes you.



I don't think scientific minded theists see it as problematic. I don't see it as problematic. If God is Love and God loves me I feel pretty good about that as long as He loves you and everyone else as well. You all are my family after all. That role seems plenty important to me and from my standpoint that's what matters. I'll leave God's standpoint to God.




I suspect that's exactly the response God was going for. It seems to me very healthy and should be very pleasing to God. Live a good life for the sake of the good life, not to earn some reward after death. Nobody knows what happens when we die. If there's a God there should be no worries. He can be trusted.


PairTheBoard

I honestly don't see how a believer of the biblical god can think so.

A god who creates a perfect world for man to live, only to add the temptation of a seemingly harmless apple that if eaten, will curse every single person to be born thereafter (through no fault of their own)?

A god who says he loves us only to sit back and watch as children die of hunger, cancer, and abuse?

A god who insists we believe in him and the divinity of Jesus, yet does not yield enough evidence for the logical minded to believe (in fact, one might argue the evidence points to non existence if we use the logic he gave us).

I could go on and on... But the point is, this does not describe someone who can be trusted in my book. If you don't have faith, that is. I see that this might speak to your post that people will find something to complain about regardless. Are you willing to dismiss above as such?

In my view, what matters is what we do about the world's problems. I don't view the Bible or any theology as dictated by God. I view it as a record of a certain people's struggle with their spiritual development. Worth listening to for what it tells us about those people and their struggle. In my view the culmination of that story is found in the Bible verse "God is Love".


PairTheBoard

You asked a question knowing that no one could answer it satisfactorily

Satisfactorily to who? I'm not looking for an answer that satisfies me. I'm curious what answer people find satisfactory for themselves.

God was leaning back in his chair just finished off another book called "The Bible this time its personal" working on a third book called "Pay Back is a divine right".

He looked up from his writers desk, smoked on a joint and puffed that created a cloud of vibrant colour that turned into a rainbow and 12 unicorns ran down the rainbow. God looked around the room and saw the Devil going through his stash of forbidden porn you know the good stuff you can't find on the net, "Get the hell out of here" God commanded from his chair which made a creeky noise when he swiveled round he meant to fix it but he was so into his books that it completely slipped his mind. "I told you once I've told you a thousand times Satan", Lucifer didn't like to be called Satan and got LUCI666FER tattooed across his forehead with 666 intertwined it was quite creative "Lucifer" he snapped back..."My name is Lucifer", "Every since you ****ed up the garden of Eden I don't call you that and how did you get out this time?" Lucifer with a smile on his face said "I sneaked through the magic tree that has a direct link to here"...God meant to fix that as well.

Next day God was walkin...urmm floating above the waters called in to see Buddha for more gear!

There was a knock on the door and like superman God forgot how strong he was cause it blasted the door down, it wasn't his week Satan on the loose, couldn't finish the second book, first book was a complete disaster with the humans and he needed a pick me up and that fat jolly Buddha was always high. Buddha came to door "You don't have to knock, you are always welcomed...have you figured it out yet that riddle I give you?"....God looked at the floor shuffling his feet..."ummm no I haven't had time been busy", the Buddha laughed as he turned and walked into the kitchen. "Do you have any gear left" God asked.

Day 2: God was skipping down the gold brick road, passing all the gold brick buildings a few angles where playing who could praise the lord the loudest, God hated that game that was so last millennium. Bouncing down the road bag in hand bumped into his son (who was still in spirit form) "what you got there dad?" the Buddha through in some magic shrooms and 2 bags of weed, "nothing son" God wished Jesus could move out of heaven and stand on his own two feet.

Point taken. Getting through these two stories felt like 13.6 billion years. IOW time is relative. Got it.

When you were a child could you imagine life without the rubber ducky you played with in the bathtub?

Not for me.

My time management may seem ludicrous to you, but I am nevertheless relatively certain that I exist. Why shouldn't imagined supernatural beings be afforded the same eccentricity?

Also...

Imagine a gnat with a life cycle that lasts 24 hours, and describe to it that sometimes, for no particular reason and without giving it too much thought, a human being might hit the snooze button and lay around in bed for an extra 15 minutes before starting their day. "No way, I don't buy it," the gnat would say. "Sure, humans live for a long time and have a different sense of time than I do. I get all that; but you just can't expect me to believe that any intelligent being is going to wait 15 minutes!!! doing nothing before getting on with what they have planned."

Not sure I understand. Are you saying god slept for 13.2 billion years? I guess if they need rest (like on the 7th day), a god's gotta sleep too.

The obvious and only answer to this question from a religious standpoint is:

"God works in mysterious ways that humans cannot begin to comprehend".

QED

Provers 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

No, I don't think a god exists, so I certainly am not asserting that it was sleeping for some period of time.

Since my longer answer went over your head, the short answer is I don't know, and I also don't see any good reason to suppose that a believer in a god must/should know the answer either. It is a dumb kind of attack on religion, even though some very smart and admirable people have employed it (present company excepted).

Oh the irony. Your answer didn't go over my head. I just thought it was stupid.

And what's an attack on religion? Asking theists their views? Sensitive are we?

Every other time I've seen this question asked, it is in service of the claim that religion or "intelligent design" don't make sense because why the hell would a god make a 14 billion year old universe if all it wanted was to create humans, or something along those lines.

I'm sure you were just conducting a survey though.

In any case, I did not say you are attacking religion, the "It" at the beginning of my last sentence refers the argument that usually accompanies your question.

And for reference, the post that didn't go over your head was not implying that god was sleeping for 13 billion years, it was implying that what may seem like an unbelievable amount of time (not to you; you weren't making an argument, but to other people who make arguments based around there not being an answer to the question you posed) for a god to waste, might be like a gnat thinking it was unbelievable that a human would waste 15 minutes of time.

No hard feelings.

So that accounts for seven thousand years. What happened to the rest of them? I'm confused as to what it means with the lord. Does it mean "when you are with the lord" or is it referring to just the lord and his/hers perspective?

The way I see it is it means you with the lord and believers already are with the lord/god so do believers see time differently than non-believers?


Yea I mean he/she/it has the power to do whatever but yet gives us cancer and aids.

The common rebuttal to this is god only gives you what you can handle and then I say explain suicide.


So **** the first 13.6 billion years....what was going on before then? Who created god. Surely something has to be created before it can exist.

I'm not sure that it matters to anybody, but this might clear things up a little. The mainline Christian and Catholic churches do not reject the theory of evolution or the billion year time of creation. The ideas of Creationism and the 7,00-8,000 year duration is mostly preached by Fundamentalists, a small fraction of Christianity. As far as I know, there is no way to get a reliable length of time of creation from the Bible so there really is not much chance if finding a real conflict with the scientific evidence. One reason is that the unit of time in Genesis is the Hebrew word "yom" which has an vague duration. It could mean 1 billion years or 24 hrs, depending on context.

The question as to what is happening during that period of time is a scientific question which hasn't been answered. To assume that the "big bang" is the basis for further discussion is a great assumption and one for which the evidence is less than tenuous but I believe there are some findings to which modern scientists can "theorize" as to how the beginnings arose. Something about gravitational shift or wave shift which the scientists on board can speak to.

No matter what happened it is not difficult for many religious to assume an underlying basis for a Higher Divinity inclusive of the machinations accessible to our human senses. The question really becomes as to how to perceive this higher world and subsequently to bring it forth in a thoughtful and reasonable manner.

Consider that the very substance to which you perceive in any form or feeling is the earth bound contraction of the spiritual. Just as if one can see an iceberg and only have to abilities to "see" ice but we can full well know that there is water underneath is our relationship to the spiritual world. Our senses allow us only to see "ice" but not the water , the ice being the condensation of the spiritual.

It should also be noted that all that one sees or perceives is not the entire spiritual as the spiritual is prime mover and has its own realm or bearing, so to speak. It should be apparent that one can “CONCLUDE” from thinking that there is a spiritual world or in other words, a causal or insubstantial world.

As a man walks the earth in our scientific considerations we speak to or observe our physical body. No matter how it is presented, from the big bang to the presence of iron in our hemoglobin science relates to the mineral kingdom and only this kingdom. It is undeniable that the mineral kingdom is contained within the human physical body but it is impossible, within clear headed thought, to ascribe the living and life within this kingdom. By this I mean that it is at best irrational and brings forth a false conclusion, a predilection, a desire, a convenience but never clear headed in thoughts.

Mankind has this mineral kingdom within himself but upon death this same mineral kingdom continues to act as without the individual man which presents with decomposition. The mineral kingdom, within man, acts the same as it does when it is given up to the earth at death, no difference in time or space. What is seen in the corpse is the mineral kingdom, in activity, as it was prior to death.

The question then follows as to what gives the individual man “life” if this is not contained within the mineral kingdom .When a man sleeps, in deep sleep, what keeps him alive? In my previous post in this thread I spoke to an initiate’s ability to deny the senses and enter into another world and the first world he may obtain is the “etheric” realm, as named within Anthroposophy. This is not the ether of 19th century physics but a realm to which is contained the “life” of man and in that sense it can be called the “life ether”.

The traveler in these higher realms of supersensibility can perceive the “etheric body’ of man which is something man has in common with the plant and animal kingdoms as one can perceive “life” whether an initiate or an external observer . It is possible to appreciate this realm of life through “CONCLUSION” for if we have reasoned that the mineral kingdom has no “life” then we can “see the effects” of this realm without having the ability to perceive this realm spiritually. We observe the “EFFECTS” and reason to a realm to which we have very little knowledge but can still bring this concept within our store of concepts for further consideration.

This realm within which is the “LIFE BODY” of Man is common throughout the cosmos and the individual man has his own specific “LIFE BODY” which can also be called his “FORMATIVE FORCE BODY” in which the “FORM” of Man is contained. This body, supersensible in nature, keeps the mineral kingdom, within Man, in form, so to speak, and at death the “FORMATIVE FORCE BODY” leaves the mineral which returns to its own realm of the mineral earth. Another way of understanding is that the mineral is brought forth to a “higher existence” so long as man is alive with the etheric body stopping the mineral from utilizing or manifesting its own powers which of course are those of the so called “laws of nature”, or mineral kingdom.

At death, it has been appreciated by some that the individual man “sees his life pass before him”, in a short period of time. This is true and what happens is that the “life Body” gives up the “memories” of man and in reverse order these “pictures” pas before the soul is is going through death. And so we can say that the etheric body also is a realm of “pictures” or “imaginations”, not to be confused with fantasy. These memories pass into the cosmic ether but man keeps an abstract of his experiences within these memories as he passes onto higher realms in his journey after death.

This does not speak to the realm of SENSIBILITY , or our feelings, desires,thoughts,etc.. which from the above is not contained within the “etheric realm” or the ether body of man. Another way of looking at this is the fact that a man does not “feel” or “think” or “will” while asleep and therefore there is another realm to which the soul attains upon awakening and therefore there is also a third body of the human being which speaks to this but I’ll stop here. It suffices to understand that these realms, which can be brought to our understanding by an “initiate consciousness” can also be appreciated by us without having this ability, and this is accomplished through “thinking and thoughts”..

Anyone who demands “proof” of the spiritual need only enter the realm of thoughts and thinking and the “proof” will speak for itself. Yes, it is possible for the initiate to be in error and for the normal consciousness to correct the initiate findings because both are working witnin the world of thoughs and thinking.

So what you are saying, if I can be so bold as to simplify, is that if I except your exact definition of spirituality, then everything that you say about spirituality is true. This is the same tired argument that all of us have heard all of our lives.

"How do I know the Bible is God-inspired?".... because it says so in the Bible.
"How do I know that the Bible is correct?"..... because it is inspired by God.

Maybe, just maybe, when I see ice.... it's because there is just ice. There is no reason for there to be any more. If you have faith in something more, that's fantastic, but that is completely based on your own feelings. Getting to the point where you realize that it is only faith and that is all that justifies your own beliefs would actually seem to me like a comfort.

You're stuck in your own head; read it all again. I never mentioned the Bible , great as it is. The "ice/water" is an allusion and my reference is to justified thinking; thinking as a spiritual activity. The following is also known as " The Philosophy of Spiritual Activity". Also read my previous post in this thread, hopefully that will help.

A Reference is; "The Philosophy of Freedom" by Rudolph Steiner: http://wn.rsarchive.org/Books/GA004/...004_index.html