My understanding is that by 0 BC God had found that humankind, including the Israelites, were sinning so greatly that they broke the Old Covenant and were heading to destruction. God intervened by sending Jesus to earth to teach God's law. Jesus also demonstrated how serious our commitment to the laws should be by his martyrdom. A less dramatic statement would not influence people enough. Anyone who follows his teachings and his committment will have their sins forgiven and will be saved under the New Covenant. This scenario is sometimes called the moral influence theory of atonement.

1 Peter 2:21 "To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps."

First I would like to point out that accepting the doctrine of original sin does not require that one accepts the penal substitution view of atonement.

The Christus Victor view of atonement would not say that Christ's death reconciled God to us (or really God to God), allowing God to forgive us, but reconciled us to God allowing us to accept God's forgiveness.

Wow.

Hi! I'm new here. My name is ShopliftUserName, and I used to be afraid of this forum for some reason.

But now I can see that there's nothing to be afraid of, I like you guys.

anyway, carry on.

Wow...you are so gansta!

Consider the following quote from Martin Luther with supporting verses from the Scriptures:

Learn Christ and him crucified. Learn to sing to him and, despairing of yourself, say, “Lord Jesus, you are my righteousness, just as I am your sin. You have taken upon yourself what is mine and have given me what is yours. You have taken upon yourself what you were not and have given to me what I was not.” –Martin Luther

For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. — 2 Corinthians 5:21 ESV

All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all. — Isaiah 53:6 ESV

I mean God makes it abundantly clear in the OT that human sacrifice is an abomination and 'not even on his mind':

Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. Thou shalt not do so unto the Eternal thy God: for every abomination to the Eternal, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. [Deuteronomy 12:30-31]

Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matte, that thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them? Ezekiel 16:20-21

When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire...Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. Deuteronomy 18:9-12

They shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, and the land was desecrated by their blood. Psalm 106:38

Pretty interesting considering God's apparent plan from the beginning was the crucifixion. Isn't Jesus both innocent, male, and a child of God?

Also maybe some Christians can clarify just how suffering a beating and death on the cross atones for the single beating rape and murder of a child by a serial killer, not to mention the trillions of other sins committed by every human being on the planet?

Even tacitly accepting, let alone rejoicing in or requesting that someone else can pay for my transgressions is both immoral and irresponsible. Surely not indicative of a just and equitable deity.

Vicarious redemption is plain and simple a disgusting, barbarian concept.

Even tacitly accepting, let alone rejoicing in or requesting that someone else can pay for my transgressions is both immoral and irresponsible. Surely not indicative of a just and equitable deity.

Vicarious redemption is plain and simple a disgusting, barbarian concept. -end quote

Barbarian?

You really haven't thought about it much then.

It's really quite utilitarian of God to substitute one man for the whole world after signaling with Abraham and Moses and the prophets that he intends to do so.

What does it even mean "Jesus died for our sins?"

It is the awarding of a guilt trip on the superstitious.

Maybe we asked God to create us, when the first man cried out to God for the first time.

Maybe God's existence demands our existence.

God is timeless, and in all points of time.

Perhaps we demanded our existence.

that reminds me of the time a sandwich demanded its existence.

edit- on a serious note, do you realize that this reads like gobbledegook? This is absolutely meaningless. In your mind, what effect do you think reading what you posted will have? I want to assume you realize, for example, that something that doesn't exist can't demand to be created but then... you posted it.

The problem is still why God has to do it at all. Especially if he intends to use said event to guilt-trip the rest of us for eternity.

(This includes the future.)

Perhaps his statement should be modified to "if it was anybody but god, vicarious redemption is barbaric". It is sort of assumed vacuously that anything god does is obviously amazing and wonderful. But if down on earth we had a system where, say, one man could serve time in jail for some other man or all other men them yes that would be pretty barbaric.

hes all knowing, all powerful, but he just can't handle money and he always needs a lil more...he's JESUS. the invisible man in the clouds.

You didn't answer my question. You said that "we demanded our existence." Something that does not exist can make no demands.

So I ask again, who is your intended audience. I am just curious... because if you're writing to Splendour you can write anything that is even remotely agreeable with her sense of spirituality and she'll agree. But it seems to me that you are trying to talk to skeptics.

What do you think the reaction to people who haven't swallowed the jello already when you tell them that "an non-existent race demanded its existence?"

Alot of posters on here seem to suffer from some type of misassumption that because people today are modern that they're no longer barbaric but if you study current events and culture we could be just as barbaric.

We used to not have Columbine and V Tech massacres at schools and colleges. That's a purely barbaric, modern phenomena.

Shame can be a good thing for society. It's known to have a salutory effect on some people.

You may be interested in the distinction that Malina and Rohrbaugh make between shame and guilt as it relates to modern and ancient contexts.

http://www.tektonics.org/print.php4

Quote: "Since the introspective, guilt-oriented outlook of industrialized societies did not exist [in NT times], it is unlikely that forgiveness meant psychological healing. Instead, forgiveness by God meant being divinely restored to one's position and therefore freed from fear of loss at the hands of God"

Some background on Malina and Rohrbaugh's The Context Group:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Context_Group

Parents: Please register your children for a lifetime of guilt. Superstition and delusion is good for them. Join millions of ignorant peasants.

Troll if you can't admit that the ancient world culture was different from today's, amirite?

At the end of the day, the God of the Bible is good.

Lets go over the track record of His dealings with Israel.

Israel is enslaved to the Egyptians. Their life is a nightmare. He says, hey follow Me and I'll get you out of this mess and make you guys the head of the world, increase your descendants, good times for all.

To do this, he gives them his perfect laws. They then proceed to follow the laws and they start to dominate.

The only catch to this whole thing is that there is a curse (Deut. ch 28) if they stop following the law, they'll be enslaved. Now this could be seen as a totally practical matter (although I think there is divine intervention as well); the law made you great, without the law you'll be crap like you were before.

Through this deal, God has something on the line as well though; his reputation. As a bank wants collateral for their loans, so does God. As a banker views his money, God views his reputation.

So what collateral did the children of Israel have?





None.


What I'm implying (or forcefully guessing really, because this is just a stab on a difficult matter for a person who wants to understand on more than a superficial level), is that somehow His son was collateral for; a) the killing of the Egyptian first born, which finally compelled Pharoah to let Israel go and later states in Exodus that he requires the firstborn of each Israelite because of this, b) collateral for when the Israelites defaulted on Gods loan of His Covenant and therefore were cursed.

Now seeing that the Israelites (Celto Anglo Saxons) are in a difficult situation and cursed, He provides the collateral Himself, to uncurse their defaulted position, and make a New Covenant. Which really is the same Covenant rewritten, plus a spiritual component where God lives in each believer, as opposed to the temple. Temple Law gone, National Law still applicable. (I'd argue the New Covenant really is exactly the same as the Old in a way, because he says a similar thing (about not living in temples) to David when speaking of the temple).


Edit: and Esau, Jacobs brother (Jacob - Israel) has been messing with us ever since, Gods belt if you will, punishing us for forgetting the Law, and ridiculing us in online forums. lol

It was very different. They could stone people to death for not agreeing with the approved religion. They believed in animal sacrifices, and apparently human sacrifices. They believed in "miracles" and mind-reading, and reanimated rotting corpses.

But you believe in the "wisdom of the ancients" don't you?

I believe in the wisdom of God more than knowledge and man's fragile intellect.

1 Peter 1:24 (NIV)
“All people are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
but the word of the Lord endures forever.”

Proverbs 3:5-7

Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.[a]

7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the LORD and shun evil.

1 Cor. 1:18 (NIV)

Christ Crucified Is God’s Power and Wisdom
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”[c]

20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”

there's nothing modern about the school massacres whatsoever except that they are modern schools.

Sanitation
Medicine
Aviation
etc.

Your ancient heroes drank from the same cup, bathed once a month, and cooked their meals using camel dung as fuel.