Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > Other Topics > Religion, God, and Theology

Notices

Religion, God, and Theology Discussion of God, religion, faith, theology, and spirituality.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-09-2011, 12:49 PM   #1
banned
 
Blitzkreger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: I am a nobody
Posts: 863
What does it even mean "Jesus died for our sins?"

What is the correlation between my sins and Jesus dieing on the cross? Whats the connection?
Blitzkreger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2011, 02:17 PM   #2
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
VP$IP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Zero Millions
Posts: 6,833
Re: What does it even mean "Jesus died for our sins?"

There is no correlation.
VP$IP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2011, 04:26 PM   #3
adept
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 858
Re: What does it even mean "Jesus died for our sins?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitzkreger View Post
What is the correlation between my sins and Jesus dieing on the cross? Whats the connection?
in god's eyes, nothing washes away sin like the blood and suffering of the innocent.
CanadaLowball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2011, 10:40 AM   #4
Pooh-Bah
 
gskowal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Earth...
Posts: 3,519
Re: What does it even mean "Jesus died for our sins?"

the smell of fresh blood makes gods happy including Jesus...
gskowal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2011, 11:53 AM   #5
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
VP$IP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Zero Millions
Posts: 6,833
Re: What does it even mean "Jesus died for our sins?"

God also has a fondness for "burnt offerings".
VP$IP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2011, 12:08 PM   #6
Pooh-Bah
 
gskowal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Earth...
Posts: 3,519
Re: What does it even mean "Jesus died for our sins?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by VP$IP View Post
God also has a fondness for "burnt offerings".
num num num
gskowal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2011, 12:12 PM   #7
banned
 
tompakee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: IMTK Watching you watching me:)
Posts: 1,201
Re: What does it even mean "Jesus died for our sins?"

It's the same as "And they all lived HAPPILY ever after!" Just a fairytale that some people take too seriously. I like to think of bible thumpers in the same light as sci fi nerds who go to conventions thinking star wars is really happening right now somewhere out "THERE"
tompakee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2011, 12:23 PM   #8
adept
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Ontario
Posts: 740
Re: What does it even mean "Jesus died for our sins?"

God is holy and requires justice for sin. The punishment for sin is "death" - separation from God in hell.

Everyone has sinned and deserves hell. God requires perfect sinlessness, so only one sin sends someone to hell.

But God is also merciful and will accept a perfect sinless human sacrifice. Only God is sinless, so God took on human form in the person of Jesus Christ, who lived the sinless life.

Jesus took the wrath of God, the Father, on the cross for those who would accept his imputed righteousness. So Jesus paid the price for our sins by dying on the cross. Jesus proved he is God by his resurrection from the dead as he said he would.

Copy+paste
royce_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2011, 02:06 PM   #9
Pooh-Bah
 
gskowal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Earth...
Posts: 3,519
Re: What does it even mean "Jesus died for our sins?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by royce_ View Post
God is holy and requires justice for sin. The punishment for sin is "death" - separation from God in hell.

Everyone has sinned and deserves hell. God requires perfect sinlessness, so only one sin sends someone to hell.

But God is also merciful and will accept a perfect sinless human sacrifice. Only God is sinless, so God took on human form in the person of Jesus Christ, who lived the sinless life.

Jesus took the wrath of God, the Father, on the cross for those who would accept his imputed righteousness. So Jesus paid the price for our sins by dying on the cross. Jesus proved he is God by his resurrection from the dead as he said he would.

Copy+paste
drowning thousands/millions/billions of animals and humans by a global flood is not a sin? hmm....
gskowal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2011, 03:33 PM   #10
grinder
 
KingOfAces's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Heaven
Posts: 685
Re: What does it even mean "Jesus died for our sins?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by royce_ View Post
God is holy and requires justice for sin. The punishment for sin is "death" - separation from God in hell.

Everyone has sinned and deserves hell.

But God is also merciful and will accept a perfect sinless human sacrifice.

Jesus took the wrath of God,

Copy+paste
I would rather live in hell for eternity than bow down before this exacting, tyrant master. **** this God.
KingOfAces is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2011, 06:38 PM   #11
banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Jacob - Manasseh
Posts: 486
Re: What does it even mean "Jesus died for our sins?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitzkreger View Post
What is the correlation between my sins and Jesus dieing on the cross? Whats the connection?
The willingness to sacrifice enacted the promise to Abraham, "that he'd be the man, have a lot of descendants and what not".

Abraham first had to man up and sacrifice his son to prove his allegiance to God. God of course stopped him at the last second.

Later the Law of Moses comes around, everyone breaks the covenant and are therefore screwed and under the curse of Deut. chapter 28, which basically explains that they're going to go into slavery. Jesus dies to reenact the covenant.
StewTradheir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2011, 12:17 AM   #12
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Turn Prophet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Here
Posts: 11,558
Re: What does it even mean "Jesus died for our sins?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitzkreger View Post
What is the correlation between my sins and Jesus dieing on the cross? Whats the connection?
Blood debt. It's an ancient Semitic tradition and belief. You will find it nowhere in modern theology, but that is certainly what informed first-century Judaic Christians.

The modern idea behind it is nonsensical. It holds that God requires justice, is all-forgiving, but somehow isn't capable of forgiving Original Sin.

Or, you know, it's metaphor. But we already have an increasingly tiring thread on that...
Turn Prophet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2011, 09:08 AM   #13
Stuck in a While loop
 
Jibninjas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bluff-Calling
Posts: 11,468
Re: What does it even mean "Jesus died for our sins?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turn Prophet View Post
Blood debt. It's an ancient Semitic tradition and belief. You will find it nowhere in modern theology, but that is certainly what informed first-century Judaic Christians.

The modern idea behind it is nonsensical. It holds that God requires justice, is all-forgiving, but somehow isn't capable of forgiving Original Sin.

Or, you know, it's metaphor. But we already have an increasingly tiring thread on that...
Actually there are many views that are nothing like this, but why actually learn what people believe when you can just pretend what people believe.
Jibninjas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2011, 10:00 AM   #14
Pooh-Bah
 
kb coolman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: must...not...feed...trolls
Posts: 5,452
Re: What does it even mean "Jesus died for our sins?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jibninjas View Post
Actually there are many views that are nothing like this, but why actually learn what people believe when you can just pretend what people believe.
Yeah. 'Cause the theists ITF never do that to the atheists.
kb coolman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2011, 05:04 PM   #15
adept
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 858
Re: What does it even mean "Jesus died for our sins?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jibninjas View Post
Actually there are many views that are nothing like this, but why actually learn what people believe when you can just pretend what people believe.
are you implying that nobody believes what you quoted?
CanadaLowball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2011, 06:15 PM   #16
old hand
 
G1982's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Not a werewolf...honest!
Posts: 1,770
Re: What does it even mean "Jesus died for our sins?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by StewTradheir View Post
Abraham first had to man up and sacrifice his son to prove his allegiance to God. God of course stopped him at the last second.
This story has always confused me. The moral appears to be: the correct action to take when someone with authority over you tells you to do something immoral is to do it anyway?

Additionally the "of course" here is misplaced - is allowing the sacrifice worse than eg what God did to Job?
G1982 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2011, 07:09 PM   #17
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
VP$IP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Zero Millions
Posts: 6,833
Re: What does it even mean "Jesus died for our sins?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by G1982 View Post
This story has always confused me. The moral appears to be: the correct action to take when someone with authority over you tells you to do something immoral is to do it anyway?

Additionally the "of course" here is misplaced - is allowing the sacrifice worse than eg what God did to Job?
The "do what you are told" commandments:
Romans 13:1
Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you.

"Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters"
Ephesians 6
5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men
VP$IP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2011, 12:10 AM   #18
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Pooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: <insert cool poker ref />
Posts: 6,330
Re: What does it even mean "Jesus died for our sins?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by tompakee View Post
It's the same as "And they all lived HAPPILY ever after!" Just a fairytale that some people take too seriously. I like to think of bible thumpers in the same light as sci fi nerds who go to conventions thinking star wars is really happening right now somewhere out "THERE"
What about star trek? Star fleet really exists right? I am doing an online math course so i can apply next year. My life's ambition is to become a senior officer on a galaxy class star ship.

You got me worried now
Pooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2011, 12:44 PM   #19
Pooh-Bah
 
Original Position's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 5,700
Re: What does it even mean "Jesus died for our sins?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jibninjas View Post
Actually there are many views that are nothing like this, but why actually learn what people believe when you can just pretend what people believe.
You should read a bit more closely. Turn Prophet explicitly said about blood debt that "You'll find this nowhere in modern theology." He is not talking about the views of later Christian theology, but rather the origins of the idea that death sacrifice was necessary for the forgiveness of sins in the first place. In fact, he is correct that the idea of blood sacrifice (see for instance the common practice of animal sacrifice) was live idea in the time of Jesus even though it is mostly not now.
Original Position is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2011, 01:25 PM   #20
veteran
 
Pokerlogist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: "turn on ,tune in, drop out"
Posts: 2,045
Re: What does it even mean "Jesus died for our sins?"

There's a huge difference between animal sacrifice and human sacrifice in ancient Judaism, isn't there? From wiki:

While animal sacrifice was part of the practice of ancient Judaism, the Tanakh (Old Testament) and Jewish teaching portray human sacrifice as one of the evils that separated the pagans of Canaan from the Hebrews (Deut 12:31, 2 Kings 16:3). Jews were prohibited from engaging in these rituals and were punished for doing so (Ex 34:15, Lev 20:2, Deut 18:12, Jer 7:31). In fact, ritual cleanliness for priests prohibited even being in the same room as a human corpse (Lev 21:11).
Pokerlogist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2011, 01:25 PM   #21
banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Jacob - Manasseh
Posts: 486
Re: What does it even mean "Jesus died for our sins?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by G1982 View Post
This story has always confused me. The moral appears to be: the correct action to take when someone with authority over you tells you to do something immoral is to do it anyway?

Additionally the "of course" here is misplaced - is allowing the sacrifice worse than eg what God did to Job?
The moral is your going to have to make a sacrifice (in most instances, your ego). Even when you don't understand, trust God.

Abraham showed his love of God was greater than his son or even his understanding (I'd argue once you see the big picture, you'll start to understand however).

There is no authority other than God (1st commandment). If you recognise someone might know more about God than you, I'd recommend you consider what they have to say. No church leaders or officials qualify IMO. Deuteronomy is the Law, everything else is a recommendation.
StewTradheir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2011, 01:48 PM   #22
Stuck in a While loop
 
Jibninjas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bluff-Calling
Posts: 11,468
Re: What does it even mean "Jesus died for our sins?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position View Post
You should read a bit more closely. Turn Prophet explicitly said about blood debt that "You'll find this nowhere in modern theology." He is not talking about the views of later Christian theology, but rather the origins of the idea that death sacrifice was necessary for the forgiveness of sins in the first place. In fact, he is correct that the idea of blood sacrifice (see for instance the common practice of animal sacrifice) was live idea in the time of Jesus even though it is mostly not now.
I was responding to the second line of his post as much as the first line.
Jibninjas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2011, 05:28 PM   #23
Pooh-Bah
 
Original Position's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 5,700
Re: What does it even mean "Jesus died for our sins?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jibninjas View Post
I was responding to the second line of his post as much as the first line.
Well, I tend to agree with Turn Prophet that the idea of Original Sin doesn't make sense on modern moral assumptions. And while it's true that not all doctrines of the atonement rely on the original doctrine of Original Sin (or Total Depravity or Sin Nature, etc), some version of it is assumed by most modern orthodox Christians. That is, most orthodox Christians believe that Jesus' death was necessary for our salvation because our sins or propensity to sin, would otherwise prevent God from giving us eternal life in heaven.

However, I know you have a fairly specific view of the atonement, so feel free to show me how the Christus Victor model avoids these problems.
Original Position is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2011, 06:50 PM   #24
Pooh-Bah
 
Wizard-50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Columbia, MD
Posts: 5,646
This is a quick read: http://blog.marshill.com/2011/10/12/...he-cup/#prayer

It's part of a longer sermon, so I'd recommend watching the sermon if it catches your attention, or for a fuller look.
Wizard-50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2011, 07:53 PM   #25
Pooh-Bah
 
Wizard-50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Columbia, MD
Posts: 5,646
"I am a sinner. I was hanged on a tree. In Christ jistice has been done. I am a free man." -John Piper's most recent tweet.
Wizard-50 is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:51 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online