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Old 07-26-2013, 12:38 PM   #1
rstrats
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Three Days and Three Nights

Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a ôdiscussionö with 6th day crucifixion proponents, they frequently argue that it is a Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone knows of any writing from the first century or before that shows a phrase stating a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights when it absolutely couldn't have included at least a part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one of the specific number of nights?
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Old 07-26-2013, 01:03 PM   #2
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

paging frito...
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Old 07-26-2013, 01:07 PM   #3
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

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Originally Posted by LEMONZEST View Post
paging frito...
I've read your reply several times and I'm afraid I'm missing the gist of it. I wonder if you might elaborate a bit?
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Old 07-26-2013, 01:10 PM   #4
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

He is a reg poster here who will probably have some input.
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Old 07-27-2013, 04:22 AM   #5
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

Quote:
Originally Posted by rstrats View Post
Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a “discussion” with 6th day crucifixion proponents, they frequently argue that it is a Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone knows of any writing from the first century or before that shows a phrase stating a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights when it absolutely couldn't have included at least a part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one of the specific number of nights?
I don't quite understand what you're asking here. Can you rephrase that? As Mt states, he's using a Jonah-tradition here, so that would be a pre-1st-century writing that has that same phrase, but I don't think this is what you're looking for.
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Old 07-27-2013, 06:45 AM   #6
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

freteloo,

re: "Can you rephrase that?"


I wish I could, but I'm afraid it's as clear as I can say it. Can you be specific about what you don't understand?
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Old 07-27-2013, 07:24 AM   #7
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

I don't understand the sentence structure. You want an example of a phrase denoting a specific number of days/nights where it's clear that the number of days/nights specified could not have included at least a part of each one of the days/nights? I don't understand what that is supposed to mean.

Just to get an idea of what you're after - suppose someone could give you an example of what you're looking for. How would that read in plain speak?
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Old 07-27-2013, 09:51 AM   #8
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

freteloo,

re: "You want an example of a phrase denoting a specific number of days/nights where it's clear that the number of days/nights specified could not have included at least a part of each one of the days/nights?"

Yes, that is correct.


re: "...suppose someone could give you an example of what you're looking for. How would that read in plain speak?"


Let's say that some first century document shows that an olive oil shop in 1st century Jerusalem had a half off sale for 4 days from noon on the 15th of Nisan until noon on the 18th of Nisan. It also shows that before the sale, the shop had put out a notice that said that they were having a half off sale for 4 days from noon on the 15th of Nisan until noon on the 18th of Nisan, and further said that it would be going on for 4 days and 4 nights. Since only 3 nights could be involved in that period of time, the "4 days and 4 nights" must have been some sort of figure of speech from that period. (This is assuming of course that the "4 nights" wasn't a typo).
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Old 07-27-2013, 09:29 PM   #9
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

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Originally Posted by rstrats View Post
Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a ôdiscussionö with 6th day crucifixion proponents, they frequently argue that it is a Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone knows of any writing from the first century or before that shows a phrase stating a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights when it absolutely couldn't have included at least a part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one of the specific number of nights?
To make a long story short, "6th day crucifixion proponents" haven't analyzed everything. Andrew Gabriel Roth presents his view which has a strong case; see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIvX0...80A8934D7711E7

Unfortunately, just now, I didn't find Part 2 of this, which was at one time available.
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Old 11-18-2013, 10:44 PM   #10
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

Perhaps someone new looking in will know of some writing.
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Old 04-29-2016, 07:46 AM   #11
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

Since it's been awhile, someone new looking in may know of examples.
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Old 04-29-2016, 11:48 AM   #12
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

6 posts in three years, and all on this one topic. How very persistent of you. The following might be the closest you'll get.

https://books.google.com/books?id=Qu...greece&f=false

The second full paragraph seems to suggest ambiguity in the phrase "day and night."

Edit: Nope. Read it too quickly, the issue was the word "one" and not the phrase "day and night." Sorry. You may not find any examples of what you're looking for at all.
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Old 04-29-2016, 01:14 PM   #13
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

Aaron W.,
re: "How very persistent of you."

Thank you. I kind of pride myself on that characteristic.



re: "Sorry. You may not find any examples of what you're looking for at all."

Then I wonder what those who say that Matthew 12:40 is using common idiomatic language are basing their assertion on?
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Old 04-29-2016, 01:41 PM   #14
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

Quote:
Originally Posted by rstrats View Post
re: "Sorry. You may not find any examples of what you're looking for at all."

Then I wonder what those who say that Matthew 12:40 is using common idiomatic language are basing their assertion on?
If you're looking specifically for something that cites exactly "day and night" as a descriptor AND has a specific event that's measured in precisely the way you're looking for, you're unlikely to find it. The number of available writings from the time are rather limited, and the recording of events in a purely literal manner as you're looking for just wasn't something people did. It's kind of like asking for birth records from ancient times. It just wasn't a habit of people at that time to write such things.

I can't speak specifically to this situation, but the understanding of phrases is generally born out by trying to understand what people said, under the assumption that they're not stupid. I've used the word "cool" in the past as an example.

Let's say we're talking to someone who is looking at a fire for the first time. He says "That's cool!" We can, for example, assume that the guy is a moron because fire is obviously hot and not cool. Or we can look at the situation and say, well, he's probably not taking the literal meaning of "cool" because that's just stupid. So instead, that word is more likely to represent some sort of expression of interest, awe, or amazement.

In the book of Matthew, there's one other usage of "X days and X nights" and that was used in Matthew 4:2, talking about Jesus in the desert. Do you worry about whether that time period started in the late afternoon, after sundown, or before sunrise? Probably not. So an analogous statement simply may not be as temporally dependent upon the exact start and stop times. We can ask about the symbolic meaning of the number 40, and whether it's a literal 40, and all that stuff, but you'll see that we're not asking about whether it was 40 days and 39 nights, or actually 40 24-hour days.

You also have to consider that you're not the first person to ask the question. In particular, people from around the time it was written did not seem to take issue with it. So if they didn't have a problem with it, it's likely that they understood it in a way that was logical. That is, there's no reason to write a lot about it because it already made sense to them.

When reading ancient texts, you should always be working under the assumption that they meant something meaningful. Otherwise, you can end up with all sorts of conclusions. Think about the word "butterfly." If you were some person from the future looking back at this word, would you think that the people today thought that churned milk had the capacity for flight?
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Old 04-30-2016, 06:33 AM   #15
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

Aaron W.,
re: "If you're looking specifically for something that cites exactly 'day and night' as a descriptor AND has a specific event that's measured in precisely the way you're looking for, you're unlikely to find it. The number of available writings from the time are rather limited, and the recording of events in a purely literal manner as you're looking for just wasn't something people did."



Again, I wonder what those who say that Matthew 12:40 is using common idiomatic language are basing their assertion of commonality on?
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Old 04-30-2016, 01:53 PM   #16
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

Quote:
Originally Posted by rstrats View Post
Again, I wonder what those who say that Matthew 12:40 is using common idiomatic language are basing their assertion of commonality on?
Those who say it probably say it on the basis of repeating what they've been told from others because not as many of those people look into this sort of question with much rigor.

But I've given you a reasonable explanation on the basis of how language is understood. The usage of "days and nights" in a parallel situation indicates that there's not a literal expectation with that phrasing.

If you find that insufficient, I encourage you to search Greek texts for "day" and "night" (in Greek, of course) and your own research.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...&redirect=true
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Old 05-01-2016, 06:30 AM   #17
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

Aaron W.,
re: "...I've given you a reasonable explanation...Those who say it probably say it on the basis of repeating what they've been told from others..."


Then I would like to hear from the "others". What are the others who say that Matthew 12:40 is using common idiomatic language basing their assertion of commonality on?
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Old 05-01-2016, 12:51 PM   #18
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

Quote:
Originally Posted by rstrats View Post
Aaron W.,
re: "...I've given you a reasonable explanation...Those who say it probably say it on the basis of repeating what they've been told from others..."


Then I would like to hear from the "others". What are the others who say that Matthew 12:40 is using common idiomatic language basing their assertion of commonality on?
The others who look into this question use linguistic tools like the ones that I've described in order to understand the language that people use. For example, finding parallel uses of the phrasing "X days and X nights" without taking particular care to designate specific start times and stop times.

There are other examples from which one can infer this type of understanding of chronology, even if they don't exactly parallel the language usage. For example, from the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/5007-day

Quote:
In Jewish communal life part of a day is at times reckoned as one day; e.g., the day of the funeral, even when the latter takes place late in the afternoon, is counted as the first of the seven days of mourning; a short time in the morning of the seventh day is counted as the seventh day; circumcision takes place on the eighth day, even though of the first day only a few minutes remained after the birth of the child, these being counted as one day. Again, a man who hears of a vow made by his wife or his daughter, and desires to cancel the vow, must do so on the same day on which he hears of it, as otherwise the protest has no effect; even if the hearing takes place a little time before night, the annulment must be done within that little time.
But at this point, you don't seem particularly intent on making any effort for yourself, so I'll leave you on your own. You've been presented information, and you can choose to ignore it in search of a very specific presentation that is unlikely to exist for historical reasons, or you can begin to intellectually engage and take an active role in attempting to learn something.
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Old 05-03-2016, 06:51 AM   #19
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

Aaron W.,
re: "...or you can begin to intellectually engage and take an active role in attempting to learn something."

For the purpose of this topic, the only thing I am attempting to learn is what examples are being used to legitimately say that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language. The only active role that I can take is to ask them for those examples. What else can I do to learn what they are using?


re: "You've been presented information..."

But none of it is applicable to my question. This topic is concerned with one thing and only one thing; Many folks believe in a 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection. The Messiah said that He would be in the "heart of the earth" for 3 nights. A 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 nights. There are some who try to explain the missing night by saying that Matthew 12:40 is employing common Jewish idiomatic language. If that is true, there would have to be examples of such usage in order for them to legitimately say that it was common. I am simply asking them to provide examples which show that a daytime or a night time was forecast to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred.
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Old 05-03-2016, 11:23 AM   #20
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

Quote:
Originally Posted by rstrats View Post
Aaron W.,
re: "...or you can begin to intellectually engage and take an active role in attempting to learn something."

For the purpose of this topic, the only thing I am attempting to learn is what examples are being used to legitimately say that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language. The only active role that I can take is to ask them for those examples. What else can I do to learn what they are using?


re: "You've been presented information..."

But none of it is applicable to my question. This topic is concerned with one thing and only one thing; Many folks believe in a 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection. The Messiah said that He would be in the "heart of the earth" for 3 nights. A 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 nights. There are some who try to explain the missing night by saying that Matthew 12:40 is employing common Jewish idiomatic language. If that is true, there would have to be examples of such usage in order for them to legitimately say that it was common. I am simply asking them to provide examples which show that a daytime or a night time was forecast to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred.
I've done the following:

1) Demonstrated that in a parallel usage of "X days and X nights" by the same author is not questioned in a similar manner about the precise start/stop times.
2) Demonstrated that the Hebrew chronological concept of day can include any part of a day.
3) Pointed out the fact that literal transcriptions of events from ancient times are rare, so that the precise example of what you're looking for is unlikely to exist.

You can remain ignorant by assuming that the only way to answer your question is to isolate exactly the thing you're looking for and close your mind to other information, or you can become intellectually engaged in the question and realize that many such questions do not have a singular parallel that precisely answers the question you have, and that you have to work through inferential reasoning based on the available information. The choice is yours.

What you have deemed as a point of pride has been revealed to be nothing more than stubborn ignorance.
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Old 05-03-2016, 12:50 PM   #21
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

It is a bit of an odd phrase if it is meant to mean six days, at least in modern English, three 24 hour periods seems far more likely. I suppose it is very mildly interesting whether one can find this used idiomatically to mean six days in the literature.
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Old 05-03-2016, 02:52 PM   #22
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

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It is a bit of an odd phrase if it is meant to mean six days, at least in modern English, three 24 hour periods seems far more likely. I suppose it is very mildly interesting whether one can find this used idiomatically to mean six days in the literature.
I think you've misread it. The question about 6th day is about which day Jesus was supposedly buried (6th day of the week). Was it Friday night through Sunday morning or Thursday night through Sunday morning?

The Friday-Sunday is the traditional interpretation, which leads to the question of how literal one should view Jesus saying "three days and three nights." The Thursday-Sunday interpretation makes more sense of "three days and three nights" but then creates other timeline issues.
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Old 05-03-2016, 02:59 PM   #23
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

This would be an analogous rendering of the discussion.

"I waited in line all day at the DMV."

What time did you start waiting? 7 AM? And when did you get through the line? 2 PM? That's not all day. In order for you to be waiting in line all day, you would have had to get there at midnight and leave at midnight. That's what all day means.

It's a little more technical than that, but this is basically what's going on.
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Old 05-03-2016, 04:53 PM   #24
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

ah i see.
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Old 05-04-2016, 01:00 AM   #25
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W. View Post
"I waited in line all day at the DMV."

What time did you start waiting? 7 AM? And when did you get through the line? 2 PM? That's not all day. In order for you to be waiting in line all day, you would have had to get there at midnight and leave at midnight. That's what all day means.

It's a little more technical than that, but this is basically what's going on.
Have actually experienced this, I can state unequivocally - It certainly SEEMS like all day!

QED.
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