Clearly, President Bush believed there were moderate Muslims. As of late, it seems that public opinion is changing.

Surely, there are many individual Muslims that are moderate, but what about as a whole? What peaceful nations and cultures are predominantly Muslim? Do these nations embrace freedom, liberty and the democratic process?

This is a serious question and I don't pose it with any preconceived opinions of my own. I want to better understand.

In addition to the "Ground Zero Mosque" controversy, the video below is what prompted me to ask this question. Someone I know posted this on Facebook. Is it an accurate representation or is it propaganda?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8KgLZtOnVY

Are there any Muslim nations that arent third world? Is Turkey classed as first world now?

You are not comparing like for like if you are, for instance, comparing Saudi Arabia to America or Iran to the UK.

In terms of particular sects the Sufi stand out from Shia and Sunni but as far as im aware they are the minority form of Islam in all nations where it is practiced.

as for countries i guess the nearest comparison is Turkey. Im not too knowledgeable on the place but i know it has some troubles between the Kurds and Muslims, but as far as im aware it is a relatively western country without much radical element and ive never heard of a terrorist coming from there. It is also going to become part of the EU which seems like the ultimate stamp of approval in terms of being moderate when racists like France let you in.

In terms of countries that have minority extremist elements but a progressive moderate majority im pretty sure Indonesia could be considered.

Btu yeah, you need to consider like for like. When you compare places like Columbia or any number of African nations that are extremely poor but with strong Christianity with places like Saudi Arabia you get closer comparisons.

Complete propaganda, and I'm only 57 seconds in. The video claims that Islam is not a religion, but instead a "complete way of life", with "religious, legal, political, economical, social, and military components." I'm pretty sure the OT takes care of those too, but you don't hear many saying the same about Judaism. And regardless, Islam is a religion -- how could you define religion so that Islam doesn't fit?

Look, I'll listen to the video later, but I'm sure that it will make the mistake that Phil pointed out above and it will also misinterpret parts of the Koran. But you can twist anything to make anything seems evil. There are many non-extremist, non-terrorist Muslims. Many are living peacefully, fully integrated into American society, no different from the rest of us. The video must ignore these people to paint the picture of Islam that it wants.

Here's a Muslim who did a 180 degree turn:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI2Jl...eature=related

Can you point me to any polls or other evidence that support your claim that public opinion on this issue is changing? Anyway, this is not an issue to be settled by public opinion, since most Americans are ignorant about Islam.

Well, I'm not sure what you mean by moderate, but I would say that the millions of Muslims that live in the U.S. tend to be fairly moderate. They also embrace freedom, liberty and the democratic process.

As for nations, in the last decade it is the "Christian" nation of the U.S. has fought an unprovoked war of aggression against a predominantly Muslim country (Iraq), and an arguably provoked war of aggression against another Muslim country (Afghanistan). However, I think it is a mistake to view these nations in predominantly religious terms. I don't think the Christian character of the U.S. is an important cause of its recent violent past (and present). I think much the same goes for the relation between Islam and Islamic countries.

Don't mistake the interweb for "public opinion".

I don't know how it is in the US, but in my country internet polls on political issues tend to show large disparity when compared to polls that sample from the entire population with internet polls showing far less moderates.

From personal experience I also thinks this applies to debate and culture on the internet at large.

Two immediate explanations come to mind:
1. People answer more truthfully on the internet.
2. People expressing themselves on the internet do not reliably represent the population as a whole.

2 is a fairly likely explanation, 1 is certainly plausible but I find it hard to believe it explains the gaps we're seeing over here.

I'll disclaim that I don't know what source you have your numbers on "public opinion from.

This is true.

The internet opinion hardly ever matches the general public one.

No, when I said "seems" that's what I meant. It seems to me the whole "Ground Zero Mosque" thing has brought a lot of negative feeling about Islam to the surface in the US.

Do moderate Muslims leaders in the US and worldwide denounce terrorism? Do they actively discourage radicalization? Is it just that our media doesn't report it?

As the percantage of Muslims in a country increases does violence, intimidation, and intolerance of non-Muslims increase as the Youtube video claims? As I mentioned in my original post, the Youtube video could be total propoganda as far as I know. That's why I'm asking.

I don't know if interracial violence increases but they do bring some strange customs with them like the way they treat their women who try to westernize themselves.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samira_Bellil

Girls terrorized in France's macho ghettos:
http://www.hvk.org/articles/0303/115.html

I also don't know how widespread it is but there are cultural problems and I don't know if its from Islam or if its an attitude learned in the country of origin.

Just view the Mosque debates. When moderate Muslims rear their head they are attacked by ignorant and/or political pandering americans.

fwiw- I'm not looking it up because Its a waste of my time, but I remember that someone once posted somewhere in this or the political forum a large list of links to articles of various muslim groups denouncing terrorism and the like.

The media doesn't really focus on that stuff because the media has never been about good stuff. Scary stuff attracts viewers. "A moderate Muslim Group speaks out against terrorism" just can't compete with "Death Mosque Being Built at Ground Zero" or "Kate Gosselin gets a new haircut."

Mostly, yes. The radicals are largely the product of Wahhabi madrassas. Now for the super fail: these schools receive significant largesse from the Saudi monarchy. The Saudi monarchy receives huge quantities of money from US corporations and the government. So in a lot of cases, we're funding our own bombing (same is true in Afghanistan, since we give a bunch of money to Pakistan, who gives it to the ISI, who has been funneling it to the Taliban).

It is total propaganda. What's happening today is the just the latest version of xenophobia that pops up throughout history (in the mid-1800s it was the Irish, then it was the Chinese, then it was Southern Europeans, then it was the Japanese, and so on). It helps that it builds on cultural resentment that's been built up since the 11th century and is suddenly in fashion again since white Europeans have decided to stop killing each other for the time being.

True. Money and power makes strange bedfellows but I guess the Saudis have to try to keep the inhouse crazies busy while they stash the oil loot. They also need the U.S. to keep Iran off their ***. That Gulf just ain't wide enough without air and sea power.

http://www.mapsofworld.com/images/middle-east-map.jpg

Dude, I was just reading the "Mosque in NY" thread for the first time and didn't you say yourself that public opinion is changing? Why ask me why I would think that?

By the United States alone, the Muslim world has been under attack for over a half a century. This may have something to do with why they don't appear so peaceful. And the idea that Muslims are inherently more violent than Christians just becomes laughable when you look at European history.

90% of the world basically has two choices: Work for a dictatorship 8-10 hours a day (if they're lucky) or starve to death. And we call this "freedom" just as Orwell would have predicted. No nation embraces freedom, liberty and democracy. That's just PR fodder to keep the "bewildered herd" in check.

The west has been under attack by Muslim terrorists for a much longer period