There is a devil... so theres gotta be a God right? - Page 3 - Religion, God, and Theology

No, not inconsistent, it's just that a 'somewhat generic definition' is a long way short of the Christian idea of god who is much more than just a conscious creator, and who has done things and intervened in ways that would make it easy to distinguish him from another god, like Allah, and which would distinguish you as a Christian. Except for the issue of intervention, which wasn't mentioned, your definition sounded almost Deistic, that's why I asked if it was a definition you were using just for the conversation.

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02-07-2016 , 12:31 PM

#52

RLK

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Mightyboosh

OK, that's fair. I wanted to keep it generic because I think that the question of the existence of God is best considered independent of the question of choice of religion. When I am discussing theism on this site I am dealing with the former question. The latter question is not that interesting to me.

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02-07-2016 , 03:24 PM

#53

NoQuarter

old hand

Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 1,874

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToothSayer

Our minds define reality to a very large degree. Mainly because the emotional part of our brain is very powerful/central, and a person's view of the world is nearly entirely colored by emotion.

The simplest explanation for the idea that there is an external world AND we create our own reality is that the world is richly complex and multifacted, yet what we have in our heads is not actually the world. It's a model of it, and all of the meaning and interest we have is colored by our mental models. And because the interesting parts of the world consist of other changeable individuals with their own mental models, there are strong feedback loops in human affairs, such that you actually do alter the world depending on how you see it.

Look at this way. In one way of looking at reality, people do not exist as meaningful entities. They're lumps of carbon and water moving around in unpredictable ways, no different to the birds or a falling rock or the air moving or the trees swaying. That is a perfectly valid way to look at the world. Yet we are so deeply hardwired to create models around people and their central importance that virtually no one thinks in this way.

Another way of looking at the world is that people are richly interesting, able to both give and receive pleasure, and a source of opportunity - both for honing your own mind, for feeling pleasure (and giving it), for exploring, for loving.

Another way of looking at the world is from a perspective of security - that people are the only real threat to your personal integrity/identity/safety, and must be treated warily and avoided where possible for maximum safety.

These are all ways of looking at an identical external world. What differs is what aspect the mind focuses on in its limited mental model of a deeply rich and incredibly complex reality.

So in that sense we do create our own reality. Doing so doesn't mean the external world doesn't exist. It feels different and we create different personal experiences by creating a different reality for ourselves. But it doesn't imply solipsism.

A similar thing is going on with you and the devil. The idea has prominence in your mind for some reason or other, but it probably has zero correlation to reality. It's just your mental model working the way it works.

Mental models imprinted early, especially those tied to emotion and that answer deep questions, tend to be extremely resilient. Which is why most people believe in the religion of their parents and society. And can't be talked out of it.

Pretty sure the thread should have ended here imho. Provided the quoted was read and thoroughly understood imho ldo. Further confusion beyond this knowledge bomb was unnecessary.

About as solid as solid could be.. Jesus Mary & Joseph brah, nice post and proly better suited for level 4 and above thinking imho. Enjoyed.

...and to add, would you agree that a evenly distributed balance in the application of your examples seems a reasonably optimal life strat?

I could be way off in all I just typed.

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02-07-2016 , 06:15 PM

#54

NoQuarter

old hand

Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 1,874

...Or should one be on a life journey of exploration to find specificity and exact in everything we do, therefore having to apply these examples systematically?

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02-10-2016 , 11:09 AM

#55

Mightyboosh

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Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 5,560

Quote:

Originally Posted by RLK

I agree, I think it's much easier to address the issues surrounding the question of the existence of a god without getting bogged down in 'detail' that a specific religion's viewpoint might bring to the discussion. Without that disagreement over detail, you can focus on the fundamental arguments about whether the idea that there is a god has any merit or not.

I liked this:

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with the caveat that I crafted the wording somewhat casually so I reserve the right to make adjustments if it somewhat misses the target on closer inspection.

I wish I could put that under my username, it would probably save me a lot of grief.

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02-10-2016 , 11:48 AM

#56

RLK

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Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 3,420

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mightyboosh

Lol, that was a good shot. I did think about my definition a little more carefully since our exchange and decided that I did not need the disclaimer, but at the time I was firing out responses under a little time pressure at home, so I was feeling a lack of confidence in their durability under pressure.

Nothing serious at home. We are stripping a bathroom down to the studs to redo it completely and I had a window to get things cleared out for an electrician to come in and give us a bid on some rewiring. Quite a project. I have never done anything so extensive before. It's kind of fun.

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02-12-2016 , 07:36 AM

#57

Mightyboosh

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Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 5,560

Quote:

Originally Posted by RLK

Not quite sure what you mean by this even though you're clearly not taking it badly, I wasn't taking a shot intentionally.

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Originally Posted by RLK

so I was feeling a lack of confidence in their durability under pressure.

This is where I live.

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Originally Posted by RLK

Nothing serious at home. We are stripping a bathroom down to the studs to redo it completely and I had a window to get things cleared out for an electrician to come in and give us a bid on some rewiring. Quite a project. I have never done anything so extensive before. It's kind of fun.

I can empathise, We're currently having a lot of similar work done with entire rooms stripped back to bare brick/studs and I'm redecorating our entire (recently acquired) house. It's Victorian and I don't think anyone has done anything to it since the 1950s....

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02-16-2016 , 03:25 AM

#58

Hardball47

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Quote:

Originally Posted by fredward

And I am sorry if this offends anyone for whatever reason. However let us assume for a moment that a devil exists. I happen to believe that yes there is a devil, just a feeling that I am pretty sure I am right about.

Now if a devil exists, then that must mean there is a God of course, correct? Why is it that I would believe more so in the existece of a devil but I still question the existence of God?

May God have mercy on my soul please.

Because you see and experience a whole lot more of evil in the world, than you do good. And since most people trust nothing beyond their immediate senses, you are more likely to believe in the devil. If the world were the opposite and you hardly saw evil being done, then people on the fence would lean towards the belief in God, and the concept of the devil would be an afterthought.

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02-19-2016 , 12:29 PM

#59

Below Zero

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Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 848

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctyri

My son thinks there is a Santa Claus.

And why does he think that? Because adults have told him that a "Santa Claus" exists. Same with "God". We brainwash our children to believe in a "God".

Note, I'm not trying to single you out ctyri, I thought it was just a great example of how we brainwash children with religion.

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02-26-2016 , 12:18 PM

#60

Ace upmy Slv

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Below Zero

+1000%

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02-26-2016 , 02:04 PM

#61

Below Zero

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Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 848

You know, the more I think about this...is it right to teach our children that an imaginary being exists that delivers toys to children on December 25th, only for them to later realize that it was all a lie?

I think about this **** as my son is 18 months old now.

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02-26-2016 , 04:07 PM

#62

neeeel

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Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 4,731

Quote:

Originally Posted by Below Zero

If I ever have kids I am going to make it clear from the start that santa claus is just a story.

You can still enter into it, buy them presents etc but be clear that its not real. That its just a nice story.

It seems crazy to me that we would lie to them, and then deny it. I know it affects some kids quite strongly, when they finally find out that its not true.

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02-26-2016 , 07:01 PM

#63

Ace upmy Slv

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Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 1,083

Quote:

Originally Posted by Below Zero

I think it is fine because eventually EVERYONE knows it is only a myth. Myths and legends are fine, as long as you know they are just that and you take it for what they are, and not something you should center your entire life around when there is no clear cut evidence it even exists in the entire span of humanity.

Santa Claus is something that brings enjoyment to your kid for a few years and he surely did not go on any crusades to wipe out other entire races if they did not conform to his beliefs..........

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02-26-2016 , 07:03 PM

#64

Ace upmy Slv

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Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 1,083

Quote:

Originally Posted by neeeel

What happens if they get to a point where they are finally highly educated and realize that God does exist either?

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02-27-2016 , 09:25 AM

#65

Mightyboosh

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Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 5,560

Quote:

Originally Posted by Below Zero

What's the harm, it's a bit of fun, to make Christmas more special. But, there are creepy and manipulative ways to do it too, like telling your kids 'santa is watching' or 'do you want to be on santa's naughty list?' to try to influence how they behave. We never did that stuff, we just played along with the santa story for the fun part of it. Same with the tooth fairy.

And... I don't think santa and god stories are in the least comparable... I don't know why it happens so regularly.

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05-26-2016 , 05:13 PM

#66

SuperMario7

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Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 630

Quote:

Originally Posted by neeeel

How could you ever fully trust your parents, who have shown to you that they lie. As a kid I guess that goes through your mind, who knows what they be lying about in the future. Even though one might rationalise that they lied for your own good, it is still something that can mess with your head. Better to avoid it imo and just don't lie.

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05-28-2016 , 02:24 PM

#67

SuperMario7

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Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 630

You assume their must be Devil, that might not be the case at all! A Devil might not exist at all.

You assume there must be a Devil thus there must be a God. That might not be true either, there might only be a Devil.

You assume there must be a Devil thus there must be a God. Also not true, there might be a God but no Devil.

You assume there must be a Devil thus there must be a God. Not true, there might ONLY be a Devil and he makes you think there is a God.

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05-30-2016 , 09:26 PM

#68

W0X0F

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Speculation about imaginary beings is funny.

And sad.

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06-03-2016 , 06:46 PM

#69

festeringZit

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Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,442

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ace upmy Slv

What happens if they get to a point where they are finally highly educated and realize that God does exist either?

Equating atheism with "highly educated", that's pretty damned funny.

wheeee!

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06-04-2016 , 12:31 AM

#70

batair

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Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 16,802

Id love for there to be more blue collar non collage educated atheists. But i dont think the numbers in the US are very high in comparison to collage educated atheists. For sure not high in my personal experience.

If nothing else to shut some of the smart ones up about the dims needing religion or we would run amuck.

Last edited by batair; 06-04-2016 at 12:39 AM.

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06-04-2016 , 11:18 PM

#71

W0X0F

sit back, relax, and enjoy the flight

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 5,829

Quote:

Originally Posted by festeringZit

Equating atheism with "highly educated", that's pretty damned funny.

wheeee!

But there is a correlation between atheism and "highly intelligent."

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06-05-2016 , 04:58 AM

#72

Mightyboosh

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Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 5,560

Quote:

Originally Posted by W0X0F

But there is a correlation between atheism and "highly intelligent."

There's a negative correlation between religiosity and level of education. The more educated people are and the more they understand about what we observe, the less likely they are to believe in gods.

Given that the internet is the most efficient tool we've ever known for the dissemination of information, I think that it will be the thing that causes the biggest dip in religiosity in human history. Isolated populations are less and less restricted to only what their religious leaders want them to know or think and the more people know, the more they tend to ask questions that are problematic for religions.

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06-05-2016 , 02:40 PM

#73

Aaron W.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Mightyboosh

Ahhhh... this old nonsense comes back around once again. A bad reading of science leads to bad conclusions. Nobody disputes the existence of the negative correlation. But the negative correlation doesn't control for a very wide range of other variables (depending on the specific study you're looking at).

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Given that the internet is the most efficient tool we've ever known for the dissemination of information, I think that it will be the thing that causes the biggest dip in religiosity in human history. Isolated populations are less and less restricted to only what their religious leaders want them to know or think and the more people know, the more they tend to ask questions that are problematic for religions.

And the jump from correlation to causation? Classic.

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