I don't think that it's me that's twisting the question though. My question is pretty simple, is there a positive correlation between internet use and decrease in religiosity? I've provided an explanation for why that correlation might exist and I think it's a sensible explanation. It's not proof, but I already addressed that in the OP. What I'm looking for ITT is opinion, new ideas, counter arguments, whatever drops out of it.

Your original question was if increased access to information that contradicts religion would decrease religiosity. The question in your followup was if increased access to information would decrease religosity.

These two are not the same.

Furthermore, your main issue (or evidence, pending on direction) is if increased internet access will decrease religiosity. For this to answer the first two (or vice versa), you will have to show a link between these issues. We know for example, as uke has alluded to, that internet is an excellent medium for spreading religious extremism (and extremism in general). How does this fit into your proposed model?

Not exactly, I said that the information would include contradictory information but since it couldn't not include contradictory information, I think it's moot. Although, perhaps what you're saying is a better way to word the question, even if the end results are the same. Freedom of access to the internet is almost certainly going to result in exposure to contradictory information, would you agree?

Even if it didn't, the improved understanding of the natural world, gained by exposure to more knowledge about accepted theories for how the world works, could lead people to begin to question what they already know. Once you have doubt, you have weakened religiosity.

I have nothing to offer except the hypothesis and I think it's a reasonable one based on what we've observed over the last couple of hundred years.

I addressed this in an answer to Notready earlier ITT. But, let me flip this and ask you a question: Take a hypothetical religious population and expose them to information concerning Natural explanations for what we observe. Do you think that it would lead overall to a firming of religious resolve, or overall, a weakening of faith? Intuitively, what would you suspect will happen?

There's no 'gotcha' coming here, I'm just wondering if we share a paradigm or not.

As I already said, one possible explanation is that richer western countries have seen a drop in religiosity due to social and economic factors, and richer western countries are more likely to have access to the internet, so it doesnt follow that one causes the other. This is a "sensible explanation", isnt it.

I dont think its as simple as "internet, therefore reduced religiosity"

Sorry, missed that. Yes it is, but I don't think it accounts for a general decline in religiosity since the 'age of enlightenment', an observed phenomena that is consistent with the idea that increased exposure to knowledge and the understanding that often follows, can weaken religious certainty. Do you? Since the internet provides access to knowledge/information, isn't it reasonable to suggest that it's contributing to that decline?

In times when access to information was limited or virtually non-existent (except for that provided by religions, e.g. England during the middle ages) religious explanations were much more widely accepted.

Of course not, but I'm not limiting the decline of religiosity solely to being a possible effect of the information on the internet. I'm examining the idea of the internet and the increased access to knowledge/information it allows, as possibly having that effect, but of course it's not the only thing that can have it.

Again you are changing your proposed mechanism. This is not the same as your previous three scenarios, at best it is a subcategory. I'm not being nitty. I simply fear that you would use the result from this test and apply indiscriminately to your original proposed mechanism.

Consider this: Does showing that walking can be faster than driving mean that walking is faster than driving?

I thought it was an established negative correlation that higher levels of education lead to lower levels of religious affiliation later in life. What I'm suggesting is simply an extension of that. Unrestricted access to the internet can have an educational effect through exposure to new ideas and explanations for what we observe that might not have been forthcoming from whichever religion had been responsible for that individuals education.

That's essentially my paradigm so any 'mechanisms' that I've attempted to use or questions I've asked have come out of that paradigm. I'm simply trying to establish what yours is by asking them.


No because we both know that cars are capable of higher speeds than people on foot. Your example would be an anomaly.

Now you are conflating education with access to the internet, but without actually knowing if they are linked and how much they are linked.

Your issue is interesting, but you approach it too haphazardly to really get anywhere. I think you are too eager to prove a point, when what you should be doing is explore the issue more openly.

The first thing you should look at is if and how the internet can influence beliefs.

Exposure to information can be educational, no? I think one can naturally follow from the other. again, this is not something I can easily prove but I think it's a reasonable suggestion. Have we not all learned from posting here, for example, simply through exposure to different ideas, methods of argument and levels of intelligence? (Resist the temptation....)

I'm trying to explore this as openly as I can, I've been extremely circumspect in the language and approach I've used, but I do have a strong suspicion that there's some truth in what I'm suggesting.

I think there is some truth to, but I don't think it is as simple as "access to contradictory information leads to drop in religiosity". Consider for example that it is not unreasonable that access to such information can increase religiosity.

So I think you are looking at a more complex cultural phenomena than merely internet access. Consider for example that if we only looked at "religiosity" and "internet" in a vacuum, we could reasonably expect the internet to mirror society's religiosity.

But I don't think that's what we're observing. Why does higher education (i.e. greater/broader access to information and understanding than is usually the case in a population) lead to an established drop in religiosity? Why doesn't that greater exposure to information and understanding lead to an increase in religiosity? I'm extrapolating from that.

Also supporting this idea is the fact that overall, atheists tend be better educated than theists. Since exposure to the information contained even just on the surface internet must contribute to better education (in the sense of having learned something, not necessarily having been taught something) is it not reasonable to suggest that whilst both outcomes are possible, it is more likely to lead to a loss of faith, rather than an increase in faith?

The content of the internet perhaps, but just the fact that this content contained so many contradictory facts and theories and also contained many arguments both for and against what people believe might cause doubt where none previously existed.

You know, it occurs to me that if anything about what I'm saying is inconsistent with other views that I hold, it's the importance that Confirmation Bias has on how we perceive the world. People should be looking on the internet for information that confirms what they already believe, so why would they abandon those beliefs simply because they accidentally stumbled across something that contradicts them? I haven't reconciled this yet.

I am not intending to straw man an argument, just suggesting another perspective on how the internet could be detrimental to faith (also meant to be somewhat humorous).

Now if you would just take this observation and apply it to yourself...