How do you explain John 3:16?

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Seems like univeralism is impossible if you need to go through Jesus?

I think like the bible says "nothing is impossible with God". We may not know exactly how He reconciles things though some Christian Universalists think there's an order to it.

"For as in Adam ALL die, so also in Christ ALL shall be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruit, after that those who are Christ's at his coming, then comes the end" 1 Cor. 15:22-24

Does All Mean All?
http://www.becomingone.org/nm/nm14.htm#Three orders to immortality

I would of told Jesus no worries no one perishes.

It seems like Splendour just completely refuted the salvation only through Jesus interpretation of John 3:16? With 1st Cor 15:22? So...I know there are a ton of annihilationists and seperationists on here, what do you guys have to say in response to her verse? Anything?

I guess my response would hinge on that definition of the word eternal as it applies here. Everyone has a physical death. But the New Testament seems most concerned with the afterlife life. So, I was always confused whenever the concept of everlasting life or not perishing was mentioned, since it seems to just describe the quality of the soul. Wouldn't we be still be either "alive" in heaven or "alive" in hell?
Furthermore, if there was no Jesus, then what, all people in eternal hell or destroyed souls / oblivion or what? And then, of course, if only eternal life after Jesus (hell or heaven), then what was, say, Moses' soul doing for the few thousand years after his death, etc.

Both Rev 20: 14 and Rev 21:8 seem to indicate that "hell" is most certainly death, and not any kind of being "alive".

Yes but also
Rev
14:10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night,

Rev.
20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Connected to this supposedly spoken by Jesus himself -

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink


I guess I don't understand the day and night for ever and ever bit if you aren't alive. Also, this same Greek phrase eis tous aiōnas tōn aiōnōn, for ever and ever, is used most often to speak of god as in his glory for ever and ever, or as in

Revelations 4:9
Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever.

So in this case it would seem meaningless to have something dead and obliterated tortured eis tous aiōnas tōn aiōnōn.

That's a reference to devastation on Earth wrought by the angels. The smoke ascends up forever and ever, the torment isn't forever, because they're just killing people. They are attacked day and night by the angels, thus the lack of rest. There is no day or night in the afterlife. There's no sun for that.


That's what happens to the devil and his angels, not necessarily humans.

Source this? Can't find in Rev? Supposed means nothing. Needs to be in the Bible itself, the inspired word.


I don't see how the day and night thing could make sense either, as I said prior XD. This one seems to be a reference to heaven, and not hell.

That's what happens to the devil and his angels, not necessarily humans.

And the false prophets, yes?



Source this? Can't find in Rev? Supposed means nothing. Needs to be in the Bible itself, the inspired word.

Sorry in the book of Matthew as spoken by Jesus if that's inspired enough for you.

I don't see how the day and night thing could make sense either, as I said prior XD. This one seems to be a reference to heaven, and not hell.[/QUOTE]

And of course, while your at it, explain the parable of the drop of water. Is the "rich man" a devil, angel, or false prophet" ? Was Jesus just kidding with a threat? Here's are the verses from LUKE if you can't seem to be able to find them somehow:

19 ¶ There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: [The phrase, "certain rich man" is also in v1.]
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
.22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
.23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
.24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. [note below.]
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
.26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

And again, we are talking about for ever and ever, just as god is for ever and ever. Unless of course, that only means for the duration of a human lifetime.
What say ye, Splend .. I mean Soon.

Whoever they are? I guess. Well, it said one prophet, perhaps the anti christ? Would be my guess.

Well, you said "supposedly said by Jesus". Kinda a difference between your "supposedly", and accepted doctrine.

But I don't see the difference between the Rev verse and this one. Jesus (giving you the benefit here) doesn't say "and get tormented along with them". He just says "go there". So again, one can just respond with 'this only certainly applies to the devil and crew". Because while they can get tormented there, a mortal human might only be destroyed. Or any number of things.

Also, this is very likely an expression of speech. Perhaps, the very first "Go to hell!" to be documented, in the Bible itself. That makes the most sense in my mind. He's saying "you didn't help me, go to hell!"...just in a more elegant way.

I was kind of waiting on you to post Lazarus. It's a parable, not a genuine part of the bible. It's therefore anecdotal, entirely made up. Lazarus can be easily dismissed. And yet it just keeps getting used by Christians. I crack a tiny smile when I see it.

So far you've established that maybe people go to the lake of fire, but not that there is anyone alive there, or that It's not a state of death as Rev 21: 8 Says.

I think within a reconciliation framework, It's all metaphorical for destroying sin itself, and not destroying sinners. But you'd have to ask Splenda herself what she thinks.

Do you honestly believe I'm a Splendour alt or something? That's pretty funny stuff. I'm not, I've just discussed this stuff before with other posters on here. It's obvious to me that the bible contradicts itself in terms of whether everyone is saved, or some people are destroyed/tortured. You can support all three of these and be equally biblically justified. I find that fascinating personally.

No, I haven't.

Don't confuse Unitarian Universalism with Christian Universalism.

I never said dispense with Jesus Christ. God reconciles the world through Jesus Christ's work on the Cross.

Universalism, Calvinism, and Arminianism:
Some preliminary reflections.

By Tom Talbott
Professor, Department of Philosophy
Willamette University

http://www.sigler.org/slagle/tom_talbot.htm

Maybe I should have been more specific. What I meant was the refutation of the idea that only faith/belief in Jesus earns a person salvation. Am I still incorrect, with that? I honestly don't understand universalism, but I thought everyone was saved one way or another in the philosophy. Was I wrong?

Also, what is the point of faith in Christ if you are saved by him without it anyway?

There's always meaning in seeking God's approbation and there's character building as well.

“When all things are subjected to him, then the Son
himself will also be subjected to the one who put all
things in subjection under him, so that God may be all
in all.” St. Paul

St. Paul's Universalism by Thomas Talbott - Professor Emeritus of Philosophy, Willamette University

http://www.thomastalbott.com/pdf/chapter5.pdf