Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Religion, God, and Theology Discussion of God, religion, faith, theology, and spirituality.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-19-2016, 03:45 PM   #26
Dr. Meh
adept
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,122
Re: Scientology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis Cyphre View Post
I was hoping you could explain this in your own words. I have read about the first dozen examples in your link. None of them were in any way interesting. No one denies that there is archeological evidence that Christians, Romans, boats or graves existed in the 1st century. These aren't remarkable findings.
Proving that King's Cross Station actually exists does not prove that Harry Potter is real. It only proves that the author was aware of King's Cross Station.
The utter lack of (archeological) evidence for important biblical events like Exodus, the flood or a roman census seems far more significant.
As stated, there are numerous other sites that discuss such topics as the flood.
Dr. Meh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2016, 03:55 PM   #27
Louis Cyphre
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Louis Cyphre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Porada Ninfu, Lampukistan
Posts: 9,512
Re: Scientology

It is okay if you don't want to support your claims.
Louis Cyphre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2016, 04:10 PM   #28
Dr. Meh
adept
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,122
Re: Scientology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis Cyphre View Post
It is okay if you don't want to support your claims.
Is Google too difficult for you? I'm not an archeologist so if you want to learn more about archeological evidence, I'm not the one to engage with. But of course, your intent isn't to learn something new. It's an attempt to derail the thread in the hopes of ultimately insulting a believer to make yourself feel superior. You are not. If you are genuinely interested, feel free to Google and engage in a debate with the experts.
Dr. Meh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2016, 04:16 PM   #29
Louis Cyphre
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Louis Cyphre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Porada Ninfu, Lampukistan
Posts: 9,512
Re: Scientology

It is common practice around here to support one's claims with more substantive posts than "google it".
Louis Cyphre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2016, 04:21 PM   #30
Dr. Meh
adept
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,122
Re: Scientology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis Cyphre View Post
It is common practice around here to support one's claims with more substantive posts than "google it".
Considering entire textbooks and dissertations can be written on this particular topic, I don't have the time to make such an elaborate post. What I find to be even more common practice and more fulfilling is doing ones own research on topics of interest. I recommend you try doing that. That is, of course, only if you are intellectually honest in your desire to learn. Which you are not.
Dr. Meh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2016, 04:30 PM   #31
Louis Cyphre
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Louis Cyphre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Porada Ninfu, Lampukistan
Posts: 9,512
Re: Scientology

No one asked for dissertations or books to be written. Not even elaborate posts. You could have given one example of a biblical story being supported by archeological evidence, cited that evidence and maybe provided a credible link or two. You instead chose to impugn my character.
Louis Cyphre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2016, 04:41 PM   #32
Dr. Meh
adept
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,122
Re: Scientology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis Cyphre View Post
No one asked for dissertations or books to be written. Not even elaborate posts. You could have given one example of a biblical story being supported by archeological evidence, cited that evidence and maybe provided a credible link or two. You instead chose to impugn my character.
I provided a link and you chose to ignore it. That link has numerous examples for you. If you find them insufficient for the particulars that you're looking for, you can do your own research on the subject.
Dr. Meh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2016, 09:05 AM   #33
tame_deuces
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
tame_deuces's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 13,103
Re: Scientology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Meh View Post
I provided a link and you chose to ignore it. That link has numerous examples for you. If you find them insufficient for the particulars that you're looking for, you can do your own research on the subject.
Nobody on this forum is interested in arguments done by proxy, especially not 10 000 word essay proxies. If you want to argue by reference, provide a synopsis and state whether or not you largely agree. If not we have no way of knowing that you actually read what you link or if you are willing to stand by it, making debate meaningless.

As for the link you provided: The author of that article teaches at Gimlekollen NLA, a Christian school in Norway, he is not a historian nor is he an archaeologist, he holds a doctorate in media science. He is a prolific author of Christian works and and outspoken critic against atheism. The article is hosted at at a website that proselytizes Christianity.

So basically you linked a commercial.

You would have known this if you had done your research, instead you rode the high horse and demanded that others do your intellectual lifting for you. Poor form.

Last edited by tame_deuces; 12-20-2016 at 09:17 AM.
tame_deuces is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2016, 09:18 AM   #34
Dr. Meh
adept
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,122
Re: Scientology

Quote:
Originally Posted by tame_deuces View Post
Nobody on this forum is interested in arguments done by proxy, especially not 10 000 word essay proxies. If you want to argue by reference, provide a synopsis and state whether or not you largely agree. If not we have no way of knowing that you actually read what you link or if you are willing to stand by it, making debate meaningless.

As for the link you provided: The author of that article teaches at Gimlekollen NLA, a Christian school in Norway, he is not a historian nor is he an archaeologist, he holds a doctorate in media science. He is a prolific author of Christian works and and outspoken critic against atheism. The article is hosted at at a website that proselytizes Christianity.

So basically you linked a commercial.

You would have known this if you had done your research, instead you rode the high horse and demanded that others do your intellectual lifting for you. Poor form, especially for someone accusing others of "intellectual dishonesty".
I'll make you a deal, boss. I'll start posting links to support a believers position written by atheists when you atheists start posting links supporting your position written by Christians. What's that? That doesn't make sense to do? Yeah, exactly.
Dr. Meh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2016, 11:22 AM   #35
tame_deuces
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
tame_deuces's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 13,103
Re: Scientology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Meh View Post
I'll make you a deal, boss. I'll start posting links to support a believers position written by atheists when you atheists start posting links supporting your position written by Christians. What's that? That doesn't make sense to do? Yeah, exactly.
You[ were the one earlier in the thread that posited that "you were not an archaeologist, therefore you would use links" (paraphrased).

So, you defer to credentials, you accuse others of being intellectually dishonest when they call you out for arguing by proxy, you tell other people to do research instead of asking you questions - but you couldn't even bothered to check that the credentials of your link's author lives up to your own claimed standards!

And if your "evidence" couldn't be accepted by someone who isn't a Christian, it's fairly weak evidence. Not that you would know, given that it is quite clear by now you haven't even read the link you provided. Which makes your insults towards Louis Cyphre completely hypocritical.

Last edited by tame_deuces; 12-20-2016 at 11:28 AM.
tame_deuces is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2016, 11:26 AM   #36
Detroit187
adept
 
Detroit187's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Geto Fantasy
Posts: 717
Re: Scientology

Do any of you posters have a Church of Scientology in your city? No anyone who's been there? Experiences?
I have to believe that there are some positive aspects in it's teaching in that any true "awakening" starts from within.
Detroit187 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2016, 02:50 PM   #37
dynamite22
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 202
Re: Scientology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Meh View Post
Considering entire textbooks and dissertations can be written on this particular topic, I don't have the time to make such an elaborate post. What I find to be even more common practice and more fulfilling is doing ones own research on topics of interest. I recommend you try doing that. That is, of course, only if you are intellectually honest in your desire to learn. Which you are not.
How do you explain the fact that people who HAVE done their research overwhelmingly discredit the historical accuracy of the bible? The page you linked to makes me think of this:

dynamite22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2016, 04:00 PM   #38
Original Position
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Original Position's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 6,695
Re: Scientology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Meh View Post
I'll make you a deal, boss. I'll start posting links to support a believers position written by atheists when you atheists start posting links supporting your position written by Christians. What's that? That doesn't make sense to do? Yeah, exactly.
I'm with tame_deuces here. For instance, if I wanted to argue for my view of the historical Jesus, I would reference Christian thinkers like John P. Meier and N.T Wright as support for my view. It's easy to find people on your team that will argue for your conclusions, but if you want to persuade others, it is far more valuable to find someone on their team that can at least present your case.
Original Position is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2016, 04:34 PM   #39
Inzaghi
journeyman
 
Inzaghi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 204
Re: Scientology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroit187 View Post
Do any of you posters have a Church of Scientology in your city?
Yes. I live close to one located in the cultural (and rather too accepting) hub that is Dominion Road, Auckland.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroit187 View Post
No anyone who's been there? Experiences?
I have to believe that there are some positive aspects in it's teaching in that any true "awakening" starts from within.
No.

A positive side? It would probably be fair to speculate that, like most religions, Scientology brings a sense of community and fellowship - at a price. I hear they're very welcoming but then that's to be expected of an institution that relies on donations. I'm only speculating here.

I would go along and report to you on what I discovered but I'm afraid they'll recognize me as a new face and "swamp" me ape-sh*t Mormon style. That's not to put down apes- I admire all animals and, of course, we ourselves come under the definition of an ape.
Inzaghi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2016, 06:24 PM   #40
Dr. Meh
adept
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,122
Re: Scientology

Quote:
Originally Posted by tame_deuces View Post
You[ were the one earlier in the thread that posited that "you were not an archaeologist, therefore you would use links" (paraphrased).

So, you defer to credentials, you accuse others of being intellectually dishonest when they call you out for arguing by proxy, you tell other people to do research instead of asking you questions - but you couldn't even bothered to check that the credentials of your link's author lives up to your own claimed standards!

And if your "evidence" couldn't be accepted by someone who isn't a Christian, it's fairly weak evidence. Not that you would know, given that it is quite clear by now you haven't even read the link you provided. Which makes your insults towards Louis Cyphre completely hypocritical.
Actually, it's clear that YOU haven't read the source I provided and instead set out on a closed-minded attempt to discredit it. Had you actually read it, you'd know that the vast majority of it are quotations from archeologists and other sources. Which makes you calling me a hypocrite completely hypocritical.

Tell me, why haven't any of you read the source I provided?
Dr. Meh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2016, 06:40 PM   #41
tame_deuces
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
tame_deuces's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 13,103
Re: Scientology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Meh View Post
Actually, it's clear that YOU haven't read the source I provided and instead set out on a closed-minded attempt to discredit it. Had you actually read it, you'd know that the vast majority of it are quotations from archeologists and other sources. Which makes you calling me a hypocrite completely hypocritical.

Tell me, why haven't any of you read the source I provided?
Your method of argument is about as convincing as slapping someone with a textbook and yelling "you're wrong!"
tame_deuces is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2016, 12:11 AM   #42
turd dust
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 85
Re: Scientology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Meh View Post
No it wouldn't. Christianity fulfilled numerous prophecies of the Jews. Prophecies that existed for thousands of years.

Scientology sprung up from the mind of a science fiction writer who said to get rich, start a religion. There was no basis or foundational prophecy fulfilled because it's completely fictional. Christianity is factual.
The Bible Unearthed (Finkelstein and Silberman) is a fairly broad, thorough, accessible account of the current consensus on archaeology and the Jews / old testament. The consensus is not that Jewish messianic prophecies existed for thousands of years. There may well have been oral traditions, but the majority of the texts appear to have been composed in something like the 700s bce at the earliest. Not thousands of years before the origin of Christianity.

But what is more, Jews then and historians now do not unanimously agree that Jesus fulfilled prophecy. There is a strong case to be made, logically and historically, that both a) new stories are composed to fulfill popular prophecies, and b) that old stories/texts are combed through to cherry pick theretofore unknown/unnoticed "prophecy" that can then be claimed to have been fulfilled.

Just a very minor point in case: Jewish prophecy said a messiah (a warrior king) would come and he would be of the line of David. David's line was dead. Claiming that a guy who whose parents are not in the Davidian line was miraculously/magically made by god out of David's sperm is not particularly compelling because either 1) it is literally true, in which case who gives a crap what the prophecy says, a real live god came down and just worked magic in front of actual people and blotted out the sun for a couple hours and so on; people will believe and spread the word, or 2) it was mythology, made up (for virtuous or non-virtuous reasons), hallucinated, cobbled together overtime etc., in which case who gives a crap, because saying "god told us this guy is related to David, even though David's line ended already" is an obvious lie to tell/believe, because duh! there is a prophecy you've got to fulfill if you expect to get the Jews on board with you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroit187 View Post
Do any of you posters have a Church of Scientology in your city? No anyone who's been there? Experiences?
I have to believe that there are some positive aspects in it's teaching in that any true "awakening" starts from within.
In the late 70s / early 80s a bunch of poker grinders and gamblers in Texas (and possibly other places) got into Church of Scientology. Most of them dropped it once the fad passed.

A guy I know who stayed with it reminds me of those guys you sometimes encounter preaching on the street or handing out tracts who say before they found Jesus they were into drink, drugs, and loose women, but now they lead good healthy productive lives. Well, I don't have those problems, thank you very much, I don't need your religion to give me that. The guy I'm thinking of said his life was going nowhere, living paycheck to paycheck, until he got into Scientology, and after that, it was like all the sidewalks were ever so slightly sloping down for him -- he always had a place to live, a car to drive, and cash on hand to play poker. Well, again, I am not a Scientologist, and I have no problems with lodging or transportation or having enough cash to play poker -- what else do you got?!
turd dust is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2016, 01:20 PM   #43
dynamite22
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 202
Re: Scientology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Meh View Post
Actually, it's clear that YOU haven't read the source I provided and instead set out on a closed-minded attempt to discredit it. Had you actually read it, you'd know that the vast majority of it are quotations from archeologists and other sources. Which makes you calling me a hypocrite completely hypocritical.

Tell me, why haven't any of you read the source I provided?
Did you read it yourself? Here's the conclusion of your source (bolded for clarity):

Quote:
Conclusion

Archaeology adds to the cumulative case for the historical reliability of the New Testament by empirically verifying references to specific cultural practices, beliefs, places and people. As Paul Barnett concludes:

archaeology neither proves nor disproves the New Testament. It does, however, endorse the narratives at many points, especially in the case of inscriptions, which by their nature are specific. Here we meet characters secondary to the main story – the Herods, the high priest and several Roman governors. Moreover, through archaeology we are able to fill in background details that enhance the narratives in both the Gospels and in the book of Acts. Archaeological findings have confirmed that the texts of the New Testament are from first to last historical and geographical in character.
The fact that archaeological findings confirm that these texts are 'historical and geographical in character' gives ZERO support for any supposed supernatural events and miracles.
dynamite22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2016, 01:30 PM   #44
dynamite22
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 202
Re: Scientology

This part is rather ironic to say the least:

Quote:
The reliquary contained three animal bones (from a sheep, a cow and a horse) along with a human tooth, the right hand edge of an upper jaw (which chimes with Dr Kazan’s research), a right collarbone, a rib, an ulna (an arm bone) and a knucklebone. The results of three different scientific tests conducted on the human bones were consistent with the identification of the reliquary as being that of the historical John the Baptist. First, Oxford scientists were able to carbon date the knucklebone:

Oxford professors Thomas Higham and Christopher Ramsey attempted to radiocarbon date four human bones, but only one of them contained a sufficient amount of collagen to be dated successfully.
Professor Higham said: “We were surprised when the radiocarbon dating produced this very early age. We had suspected that the bones may have been more recent than this, perhaps from the third or fourth centuries. However, the result from the metacarpal hand bone is clearly consistent with someone who lived in the early first century AD.”[58]

Second, Dr Hannes Schroeder and Professor Eske Willerslev from the University of Copenhagen:

reconstructed the complete mitochondrial DNA genome sequence from three of the human bones to establish that the bones were all from the same individual. Significantly, they identified a family group of genes (mtDNA haplotype) as being a group most commonly found in the Near East, which is better known as the Middle East today – the region where John the Baptist would have originated from. They also established that the bones were probably of a male individual after an analysis of the nuclear DNA from samples. Dr Schroeder said: “Our worry was that the remains might have been contaminated with modern DNA. However, the DNA we found in the samples showed damage patterns that are characteristic of ancient DNA, which gave us confidence in the results. Further, it seems somewhat unlikely that all three samples would yield the same sequence considering that they had probably been handled by different people. Both of these facts suggest that the DNA we sequenced was actually authentic. Of course, this does not prove that these were the remains of John the Baptist but nor does it refute that theory as the sequences we got fit with a Near Eastern origin.”[59]

Third, Dr Lachezar Savov used modern medical scanners to make 3D images of the relics.[60] This “confirmed conclusions made earlier by other methods – that the bones belong to a man of Mediterranean type, between 30 and 40 years of age, who used vegetarian food [cf. Mark 1:6 & Matthew 3:4].”[61] Whether the biblical references to John eating ‘locusts’ is interpreted literally or as the ‘locust’ carob tree pod, it’s plausible to think that John’s diet was predominantly vegetarian.[62] According to Tsonya Drazheva, director of the Burgas History Museum and Deputy Head of the excavations on St. Ivan island, one could see at first glance that the bones don’t have good density, which suggests that the person in question led a difficult life [cf. Mark 1:4-6 & 6:17-28].[63] That the human remains in the Sveti Ivan reliquary are those of John the Baptist is not beyond reasonable doubt. Nevertheless, the accumulation of circumstantial evidence does appear to render the hypothesis plausible.
dynamite22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2016, 11:02 PM   #45
Dr. Meh
adept
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,122
Re: Scientology

Quote:
Originally Posted by dynamite22 View Post
Did you read it yourself? Here's the conclusion of your source (bolded for clarity):



The fact that archaeological findings confirm that these texts are 'historical and geographical in character' gives ZERO support for any supposed supernatural events and miracles.
Didn't say it did. All that work to try to disprove something that wasn't being discussed. To get back on track, I was indicating that there is archeological evidence for the Bible and none for Scientology. If you bothered to read my posts rather than trying to jump on the atheist derail bandwagon, you would know this.
Dr. Meh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2016, 06:43 AM   #46
dynamite22
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 202
Re: Scientology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Meh View Post
Didn't say it did. All that work to try to disprove something that wasn't being discussed. To get back on track, I was indicating that there is archeological evidence for the Bible and none for Scientology. If you bothered to read my posts rather than trying to jump on the atheist derail bandwagon, you would know this.
You said the following:

Quote:
To believers like me, the Bible is not just a holy book but a historical record of events. It has been backed up numerous times by archeological evidence as well as by non-biblical historical accounts.
"A historical record of events" implies something rather different than there being archaeological evidence for events/places that occurred in the bible. Was the flood a historical event? Was the resurrection? The Exodus? The Mosaic covenant? The parting of the Red Sea?

Noone disputes that places mentioned in the bible existed/certain events described in the bible occurred. As Louis Cyphre mentioned, there is also archaelogical/geographical evidence for events/places in Harry Potter. Furthermore, by your standards, the Quran and the hadith are also historical records of events.

Can you provide your best case for any miraculous/supernatural event mentioned in the bible?
dynamite22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2016, 09:54 AM   #47
Dr. Meh
adept
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,122
Re: Scientology

Quote:
Originally Posted by dynamite22 View Post
You said the following:



"A historical record of events" implies something rather different than there being archaeological evidence for events/places that occurred in the bible. Was the flood a historical event? Was the resurrection? The Exodus? The Mosaic covenant? The parting of the Red Sea?

Noone disputes that places mentioned in the bible existed/certain events described in the bible occurred. As Louis Cyphre mentioned, there is also archaelogical/geographical evidence for events/places in Harry Potter. Furthermore, by your standards, the Quran and the hadith are also historical records of events.

Can you provide your best case for any miraculous/supernatural event mentioned in the bible?
That's a loaded question and depends on what you consider to be miraculous or supernatural. Obviously, there won't be a lot of evidence for things such as Jesus turning water to wine and most other miracles are a matter of faith. But one major one for you would be the flood. Yes, I believe the flood really happened. Evidence is outlined here:

http://www.bibleinfo.com/en/question...ood-was-global

Not to mention the numerous other cultures and beliefs that speak of a great flood.

But now we're back to the whole "oh but even if a flood happened, that doesn't mean Noah and his ark were real" or "that doesn't mean it was global" or "that doesn't mean God made it happen" blah blah blah. So the problem is I can provide all the evidence available and non-believers will find any reason, no matter how outlandish or unreasonable, to ignore it. That's why this whole idea of "give me proof of miracles" is an atheist trap. I can tell you all kinds of miracles personally witnessed by a variety of sources but nothing will ever be enough to convince a non-believer of the truth. At least, nothing that I can convey via a poker forum.

And again trying to get back on track, what evidence is there of Scientology?
Dr. Meh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2016, 10:09 AM   #48
Louis Cyphre
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Louis Cyphre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Porada Ninfu, Lampukistan
Posts: 9,512
Re: Scientology

Where did all the water come from for a global flood? Where did it go afterwards?
Louis Cyphre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2016, 11:37 AM   #49
Csaba
veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,783
Re: Scientology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Meh View Post
Not to mention the numerous other cultures and beliefs that speak of a great flood.
And how big would a flood have to be to be defined as "great"? Two thousand years ago 20 miles away would be considered to be a big distance by some people. It's not hard to see how something like the 2004 tsunami could be viewed as a "great flood" be people living at the time. Add in a couple of thousand years worth of exaggeration and here we are.

Last edited by Csaba; 12-22-2016 at 11:43 AM.
Csaba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2016, 03:08 PM   #50
Detroit187
adept
 
Detroit187's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Geto Fantasy
Posts: 717
Re: Scientology

And again trying to get back on track, what evidence is there of Scientology?[/QUOTE]

Only bloated numbers that put L. Ron Hubbard in the Guinness book of world records for most published authors.
Detroit187 is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:23 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online