If you drink certain types of poison, you will die a painful death.

You want to claim that my beliefs are "largely based on societal and social pressures" when I literally just ****ing told you that me valuing science is purely a product of it's established ability to make correct predictions about reality over a large sample size.

are you ****ing kidding me right now

So... you're a special case... that's nice that you believe that.

Are you saying that this isn't a claim that science makes?

You should all come live here in Sweden. Devout religious people are mostly seen as curiosities and are rather few these days. Religion is pretty much a non-subject. The few regular churchgoers in the Church of Sweden must be like 70+ years old in average.

No, once again, I didn't say that aaron. What I'm saying is that concept doesn't even remotely relate to the social pressure of telling people that they're going to hell for eternity for not believing in religion.

Science saying [This substance is poisonous and has been demonstrated to kill life forms previously] isn't even remotely close to religions saying [If you don't believe in this book and this story which are completely unsupported you are going to go to this other unsupported concept called hell when you die and burn forever]

The fact that you thought those two things were similar says a lot

People who value science are by definition special cases, because science does not in any way threaten people to subscribe to it. Religion, as I've established, does. That's the major difference in this topic. But of course I'm sure you won't understand that and will go on attempting to relate the two for the rest of the thread, even though I just ****ing told you why you can't do that.

I was saying that they both make "threats" and you disagreed.

It sure looks like both are making claims that actions have consequences to me and is making a very strongly negative threat for engaging in specific behaviors.

But this isn't about "valuing science." It's about societal and social pressures affecting people's belief systems.

No, not exactly.

What happened was you claimed science threatens people in the same way religion does. I asked you to give me what threat science makes that is analogous to religion's threat of hell.

You proposed that science demonstrating that poisonous substances have killed life forms previously was the way in which science mirrored religion when it tells people that they're going to burn alive for eternity when they die if they don't subscribe to the religion.

Huh?

You need a punchbag bud. Save us all the grief.

No, you and people like you need to stop indoctrinating children and dragging them into your cults at young ages. Save us all the grief.

Let's see what I said:

Let's see what I just claimed I said:

No, you started with "science threatens you in the same way religion does" and you were trying to morph that into [oh I was just saying that science makes threats in general, lolz]

"science threatens you in the same way religion does" is not equal to "science makes threats"

Extra sensory perception.

I believe in the half truth that such things can exist but on the basis that it's actually sensory perception so finely attuned that there's no conscious awareness of it.

An example would be of a fireman sensing a flame backdraft about to engulf a building due to sensing a diffirence in air pressure.

He wouldn't think, 'oh the air pressure is different, wtf?'
He would think, 'this doesn't seem right' and then escapes.

(based on a true studied case of ESP I read about years ago)

Also please explain how that analogy you gave about poisonous substances at all relates to the concept of hell.

For that to have been even remotely comparable to what religion's concept of hell does, a Scientist would need to be threatening to use said poisonous substance as a bargaining chip for people to subscribe to science, which they aren't, they would need to be threatening to use it on people for eternity after they die, which they aren't. Oh, and it is demonstrably true that there are poisonous substances that can kill life forms, so it is actually a true claim as well as can be helpful in saving people's lives. And it enhances our knowledge of reality.

Science's claim that poison can kill life forms:
[ ] scientists use it as a bargaining chip to get more people to subscribe to science
[ ] scientists threaten to use the poison on people for eternity
[x] it's demonstrably true that poisonous substances can kill life forms
[x] this knowledge enhances our understanding of reality as well as has the ability to save lives
[ ] scares people into believing things that can be detrimental

Religion on the other hand does in fact use the concept of hell as a bargaining chip to get people to subscribe, and very effectively. It does in fact threaten that the concept will be used on people for eternity. The concept is not demonstrably true, not even close, and in fact isn't supported in any way whatsoever. And it's not helpful in saving people's lives either. Does not enhance our knowledge of reality.

[x] religion use the concept of hell as a bargaining chip to get more people to subscribe
[x] religion threatens the concept of hell for eternity
[ ] hell is demonstrably true
[ ] hell is supported in a single way
[ ] the concept of hell helps save people's lives
[ ] the concept of hell enhances our understanding of reality
[x] has the ability to scare people into believing things that are detrimental

Maybe you should stick to math.

RA, stop right there, you're making yourself look bad.

I can count the number of times I've been to church in my life on three fingers. I keep no religious friends, live in no religious community, pay no tithes, haven't picked up a bible for a few years. Saturday night I was out on the plss dancing and pulling a stunner who I've got a date with on Thursday evening. I work in a council estate comp and spend my evenings and weekends working behind a bar, coaching basketball, playing tennis, working out in the gym, designing t-shirts. I spent my teenage years hanging with people who were in and out of prison, selling drugs, having fights, drinking and the like. I listen to loud offensive music, have pierced ears and three tattoos.

No part of my life involves the lifestyle you are ignorantly ascribing to me just because i have professed a belief in God on these forums, and it never has.

I work with children for a living, many of them from troubled home lives, and the only indoctrination they receive from me is to be good stand-up people and to work hard to get where they want to be in life. I wouldn't dream of even suggesting any of them go to church, having never been myself, why would I? My beliefs or lack thereof are irrelevant to these kids' lives, and that's the way I play it.

Like I said, you have more in common with these over-religious ***** than I do. I'm a regular cool guy who happens to hold a personal belief in God, you on the other hand are clearly a tool.

And yet you don't give a flying **** about the children who are indoctrinated into religion, and would prefer to call anyone who does care an "over-zealous tool"

Just get out of this thread please, you have nothing to add. Neither does aaron really but it's more fun to destroy him.

Only person I was calling a tool was you.

Nuff.

I didn't understand that, thanks

you put this along side "believe or burn for eternity"?!?!?

yes. yes he does

It might be remotely close to analogous if science said "you better accept science right now or when you die we're going to pour this unknown substance onto you that will burn your soul alive for eternity"

Of course it doesn't do any of these things, but that doesn't stop morons like aaron from claiming that it does.

he sticks around long enough to offer a reply to this, but once i point out how incredibly wrong and off base it is he disappears into the microstakes limit forum. shocking, i've never seen theists practice avoidance like this before! never, ever...not once!

ZOMG! I don't respond in less than 2 hours!

It's not as if you've ever walked away from a conversation...

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...2&postcount=33

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...3&postcount=57

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/13...78/index2.html