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Religion, God, and Theology Discussion of God, religion, faith, theology, and spirituality.

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Old 03-24-2017, 01:56 AM   #101
Aaron W.
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Re: Religion and logic

So, you've decided to abandon your original post completely and launch into a completely separate assortment of issues? It only took two posts from others before you've decided to move on?

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Originally Posted by d2_e4 View Post
On point though - I take issue with religion on a couple of matters, and I won't be particularly diplomatic about it:
If you choose a lack of diplomacy, how is it that you anticipate being treated?

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- Wars. How many ****ing wars are there going to be about religion? Although, to be fair, if there were no religion, people would find something else to fight about. Demagogic leaders will always find something to appeal to the populace.
Let's start by analyzing the question of how many wars there have been that are about religion? There is a variety of causes behind wars, including economics and ethnic issues. How are you sorting out the difference between these causes and religious ones?

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- Laws. Personally, I couldn't care if you want to read the bible (or the Brothers Grimm, or whatever else), but I object when you want to start abridging my rights based on your interpretation of it. I don't really care if your imaginary friend disapproves of where I put my penis - it's none of his business, nor yours.
There are lots of religious people who agree with you! Why are you treating all religious people with such a blanket accusation?

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- Conflation of religion and morality: "Oh you're an atheist, how can you be a good person?" I mean, **** you to anyone who says that. And my own mother said it to me.
Ironically, your original post is the conflation of religion and intelligence. "Oh you're a religious person? How can you be capable of rational thought?" You're basically just committing the exact same error that you're so upset about yourself? This is a textbook demonstration of hypocrisy.

But given the pattern of posting and reasoning demonstrated thus far in this thread, it seems that this is to be expected. After all...

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The mechanism through which you believe what you do about religious people is not that different from the mechanism that religious people use themselves.
So it seems quite expected that you would just continue onward making the same errors again and again.
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Old 03-24-2017, 08:54 AM   #102
tame_deuces
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Re: Religion and logic

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Originally Posted by d2_e4 View Post
Nice wording. I like it. I was taught to eschew obfuscation, though.
That was not obfuscation, but clarification.

Your OP contested that religious were incapable of rational thought. The man who proposed the big bang, Georges Lemaître, was a catholic priest and a religious man (he was also a physicist).

For your OP to hold water, that would mean that the big bang theory is devoid of rational thought. If any bit of it is rational, your OP is wrong - because then we would know that at least one religious person is capable of rational thought. There are deeper concerns than that of course, but refuting a blanket statement needs only one counter-example.

For the record, I don't think religious people are less capable of rational thought than non-religious people. I am not religious so I hold no particular inclination to claim this. In fact I think most religions can (and should) be argued against. This leads to me think that rational thought isn't necessarily a very good arbiter of knowledge on its own. A lot of very rational people have can argue some very dubious things.

For example I think you are fairly rational person who is misapplying reason to hold on to your view that religious people are irrational.

Last edited by tame_deuces; 03-24-2017 at 09:00 AM.
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Old Yesterday, 07:14 PM   #103
David Sklansky
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Re: Religion and logic

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Originally Posted by tame_deuces View Post
That was not obfuscation, but clarification.

Your OP contested that religious were incapable of rational thought. The man who proposed the big bang, Georges Lemaître, was a catholic priest and a religious man (he was also a physicist).
That's a bad example because the big bang theory doesn't conflict with and in fact sort of verifies some religion's beliefs. But what of a theory that does conflict? Will a religious scientist be unbiased when evaluating it?
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Old Today, 04:05 AM   #104
tame_deuces
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Re: Religion and logic

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Originally Posted by David Sklansky View Post
That's a bad example because the big bang theory doesn't conflict with and in fact sort of verifies some religion's beliefs. But what of a theory that does conflict? Will a religious scientist be unbiased when evaluating it?
If the OP had held that people were irrational on beliefs that conflicted with their religious belief I would agree, but the OP simply asserted that religious people were incapable of rational thought. But to answer your question, I suspect that is unproblematic to most. Are there examples? Yes.

Heisenberg was a Christian, but to us he is known first and foremost as the man behind the the uncertainty principle which tell of a fundamental limit to the precision of which certain traits of particles can be known. He wrote to Einstein (who was a strict proponent of causality), stating that "the good Lord God would know the position of the particles. and thus He could let the causality principle continue to have validity". "

So there you have a Christian, who would later be known as one of the greatest physicists of all time, exploring a field in physics that contradict one of the chief principles of theological and scientific arguments since Aristotle and Plato - and who even defends it in letters and arguments with arguably the most renowned physicists of his time.

Last edited by tame_deuces; Today at 04:10 AM.
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