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| Religion, God, and Theology Discussion of God, religion, faith, theology, and spirituality. |
05-23-2012, 04:22 PM
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#16
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Indy
Posts: 5,814
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Re: Question for Catholics
As a Catholic this is a subject I struggle with personally as does my father (one of the strongest Catholics I know) so it is certainly a subject worth talking about. I wish I knew more and could help, I recently read something by Scott Hahn (Catholic writer) on the subject maybe I'll dig it up and share.
The gist was that sexuality is a sacred and great thing within the confines of marriage and that the creation of sexual ability was made with the intent of openness of reproduction, to block off that possibility is equitable to blatantly disrespecting any other sacrament that was created to be good by God.
The reason the Catholic church does not feel this is harmful to society is that because just as much as they are against contraception they are also against premarital sexuality, without the second there is no need for the first. In theory this is fine except, as mentioned earlier, not every Catholic 17 year old boy and girl have the will power or conviction to stick to the important second part and they do engage in premarital sex only to find out they hadn't been taught much about contraception because it was a non-necessity.
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05-23-2012, 04:24 PM
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#17
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Indy
Posts: 5,814
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Re: Question for Catholics
Quote:
Originally Posted by weaselgirl
Anti-contraception is a terrible teaching, and the idea that it will somehow magically prevent teens from boning each other (a common "argument" that I've heard) is just laughable.
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When you say "it" are you referring to anti-contraception teaching or abstinence from sexual activity before marriage teaching?
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05-23-2012, 07:16 PM
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#18
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Northern California
Posts: 7,034
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Re: Question for Catholics
Quote:
Originally Posted by mSed84
I think the point is that the position of the Catholic Church is irrelevant in almost every scenario.
You point can (should) be applied to health education in public schools (at least in the U.S.), not directed at the Catholic Church.
And to be fair, do we really believe that anyone having sex, presumably knowingly against the will of the Catholic Church, doesn't know what a condom is?
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The problem is that the Catholic Church lobbies against its being applied to health education in public schools and that many of its members are responsible for public school curricula.
There is more to sex education than learning what a condom is. Things like knowing condoms have a 5% failure rate and the fact that birth control pills are significantly better at stopping pregnancy than condoms but do nothing in terms of stopping the transmission of STDs are important.
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05-23-2012, 07:18 PM
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#19
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Northern California
Posts: 7,034
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Re: Question for Catholics
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jibninjas
If we have taught kids that you should not have premarital sex and they have not listened why would we think that they then start to listen that contraceptives are bad?
These two teachings are intertwined.
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Are you really advocating that it is okay to give somebody bad information simply because they do not listen to your good information or am I missing something?
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05-23-2012, 11:39 PM
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#20
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old hand
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,260
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Re: Question for Catholics
In brief, the Catholic view is that contraception is wrong because it obstructs the purpose of human sexuality, which is fundamentally procreation. There's nothing complicated about this view: you can disagree and think that the purpose of human sexuality is something other than procreation, but I can't see thinking that this view is "insane."
As for the alleged harms caused by this teaching, as others have pointed out, it's a little odd to blame the Church for the effects of people not following Catholic teaching.
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05-23-2012, 11:48 PM
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#21
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: magic swirlin ship
Posts: 10,469
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Re: Question for Catholics
Its harmful if they do follow it.
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05-24-2012, 12:03 AM
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#22
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old hand
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,389
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Re: Question for Catholics
Isn't it strange when atheists and liberals see animals copulating on Discovery, or bugs or birds or squirrels in the yard doing so, that they have no problem or issue with stating that it is for procreative purposes. 99.99% of millions of species of life are sexually "reproducing", and it is what it is.
But let two humans do it, and oh no, the goalposts are moved just for us. Suddenly we ARE special.
You know what I'm saying.
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05-24-2012, 12:08 AM
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#23
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old hand
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,260
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Re: Question for Catholics
Quote:
Originally Posted by batair
Its harmful if they do follow it.
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Care to spell this out? What are the harms of following Catholic teaching on human sexuality? (That is, no premarital sex, no contraception, no homosexual acts, no masturbation, no pornography?)
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05-24-2012, 12:09 AM
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#24
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: magic swirlin ship
Posts: 10,469
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Re: Question for Catholics
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doggg
Isn't it strange when atheists and liberals see animals copulating on Discovery, or bugs or birds or squirrels in the yard doing so, that they have no problem or issue with stating that it is for procreative purposes. 99.99% of millions of species of life are sexually "reproducing", and it is what it is.
But let two humans do it, and oh no, the goalposts are moved just for us. Suddenly we ARE special.
You know what I'm saying.
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Nah bonobos, old people, Catholics using natural family planning  , and id assume many other animals have sex for pleasure non procreative purposes too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BTirish
Care to spell this out? What are the harms of following Catholic teaching on human sexuality? (That is, no premarital sex, no contraception, no homosexual acts, no masturbation, no pornography?)
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Ive argued it enough that i dont want to anymore. Just take is take it as assertions and dismiss it.
Last edited by batair; 05-24-2012 at 12:24 AM.
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05-24-2012, 12:15 AM
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#25
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True Facts
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Dexter's table
Posts: 9,049
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Re: Question for Catholics
Quote:
Originally Posted by BTirish
Care to spell this out? What are the harms of following Catholic teaching on human sexuality? (That is, no premarital sex, no contraception, no homosexual acts, no masturbation, no pornography?)
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We could go with having way too many (unwanted) children, for starters.
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05-24-2012, 12:21 AM
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#26
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old hand
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,260
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Re: Question for Catholics
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Originally Posted by asdfasdf32
We could go with having way too many (unwanted) children, for starters.
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Too many by what standard, and unwanted by whom? In any event, your claim is incorrect, as Catholic teaching allows married couples to space births for legitimate reasons by employing natural family planning.
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05-24-2012, 12:22 AM
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#27
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old hand
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,389
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Re: Question for Catholics
Animals lack the intellectual clarity that we do and commonly mistake one thing for another. To say that they are seeking sex for pleasure is often a simple case of mistaken identity or reacting to a similar circumstancial set. Animals also devour their young at times. Should we take a moral imperative from it?
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05-24-2012, 12:29 AM
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#28
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old hand
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,389
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Re: Question for Catholics
I read recently about how cats will sometimes play with their kittens and things will get out of hand. The cat switches from a maternal to a hunting instinct because of the ferocity of the kittens movements which will mimic the movements of prey trying to escape. The end result is a dead kitten. Do cats enjoy mutilating and killing their young?
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05-24-2012, 12:36 AM
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#29
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: magic swirlin ship
Posts: 10,469
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Re: Question for Catholics
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doggg
Animals lack the intellectual clarity that we do and commonly mistake one thing for another. To say that they are seeking sex for pleasure is often a simple case of mistaken identity or reacting to a similar circumstancial set.
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Though i think you are wrong and some animals do have sex for pleasure. What other animals do got noting to do with anything.
Humans have sex for pleasure with no intent at procreation is the main point.
Quote:
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Animals also devour their young at times. Should we take a moral imperative from it?
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If animals have sex for procreation purposeses and you think humans should too arent you saying i should follow their example?
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05-24-2012, 12:39 AM
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#30
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True Facts
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Dexter's table
Posts: 9,049
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Re: Question for Catholics
Quote:
Originally Posted by BTirish
Too many by what standard, and unwanted by whom? In any event, your claim is incorrect, as Catholic teaching allows married couples to space births for legitimate reasons by employing natural family planning.
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Too many and unwanted by the parents standards obviously.
And bravo on referring to "natural family planning" which is basically a loophole in the non-contraceptive plan. If you can't see that there's no moral difference between using a condom and using something like the lactational amenorrhea method, then I really don't know what to tell you.
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