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The Problem of Evil: Which attribute should we drop from the Christian Notion of God The Problem of Evil: Which attribute should we drop from the Christian Notion of God

10-30-2012 , 02:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by neeeel
If you hate anything, then you arent omnibenevolent.


He could love not loving, and not contradict himself. He could love others who dont love, for instance.
nope omnibenevolent means "All good" and because god defines what is "
good" and not you it means that you cant say he isnt
The Problem of Evil: Which attribute should we drop from the Christian Notion of God Quote
10-30-2012 , 02:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nooberftw
nope omnibenevolent means "All good" and because god defines what is "
good" and not you it means that you cant say he isnt
Hahahah, good one. ok , so forgetting about the use of omnibenevolent at the moment, if god hates anything , it shows that hes not all loving.

If god defines whats good, does that mean that he can change the definition when he wants?
The Problem of Evil: Which attribute should we drop from the Christian Notion of God Quote
10-30-2012 , 02:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by neeeel
Hahahah, good one. ok , so forgetting about the use of omnibenevolent at the moment, if god hates anything , it shows that hes not all loving.

If god defines whats good, does that mean that he can change the definition when he wants?
you cant say your all loving and love evil at the same time because its the opposite of love

this hypothetical doesnt make any sense because if he loved evil beings like satan then there would be even more evil in the world and you would blame god for that and say hes not all loving

Last edited by nooberftw; 10-30-2012 at 02:45 PM.
The Problem of Evil: Which attribute should we drop from the Christian Notion of God Quote
10-30-2012 , 02:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nooberftw
you cant say your all loving and love evil at the same time because its the opposite of love

this hypothetical doesnt make any sense because if he loved evil beings like satan then there would be even more evil in the world and you would blame god for that and say hes not all loving
Loving evil does not make you evil.

Look, you are the one that is saying that god is all loving. ALL loving, meaning loves everything. Not loves everything that is good, but loves everything.

its possible to love evil, and love evil beings, without being evil yourself.
The Problem of Evil: Which attribute should we drop from the Christian Notion of God Quote
10-30-2012 , 03:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by neeeel
Loving evil does not make you evil.

Look, you are the one that is saying that god is all loving. ALL loving, meaning loves everything. Not loves everything that is good, but loves everything.
no i didnt say that it says right here he hates things, im saying your definition of all loving is contradictory

Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."

Quote:
its possible to love evil, and love evil beings, without being evil yourself.
are you sure about that?
think about what you are saying
The Problem of Evil: Which attribute should we drop from the Christian Notion of God Quote
10-30-2012 , 05:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nooberftw
nope omnibenevolent means "All good" and because god defines what is "
good" and not you it means that you cant say he isnt
This also means you can't say god is good...
The Problem of Evil: Which attribute should we drop from the Christian Notion of God Quote
10-30-2012 , 06:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position
This also means you can't say god is good...
hes the axiom the whole world is built on
there is no good or bad without him
The Problem of Evil: Which attribute should we drop from the Christian Notion of God Quote
10-30-2012 , 10:30 PM
From "The Divine Names" by Dionysius the Areopagite as paraphrased by the translator. Dionysius was initiated by Paul in Athens and can be referenced in the Acts of the Apostles.

From Chapter 5:

"The Ultimate Godhead is reached only by the Negative Path and known only by unknowing. The Affirmative Path of philosophical knowledge leads only to the differentiated manifestations of the Godhead: e.g the Trinity, in its creative and redemptive activities, is known by the Affirmative Method, but behind these activities and the faculty for them lies an ultimate Mystery where the Persons transcend Themselves and are fused (though not confused)."

Specifically Dionysius states "But this much we must say, that it is not the purpose of our discourse to reveal the Super-Essential Nature (for this is unutterable, nor can we know It, or in anywise express It, and it is beyond even the Unity), but only to celebrate the Emanation of the Absolute Divine Essence into the universe of things."

Likewise, in "The Mystical Theology", chapter 1, of Dionysius he states "For, by the unceasing and absolute renunciation of thyself and all things, thou shalt in pureness cast all things aside, and be released from all, and so shall be led upwards to the Ray of that divine Darkness which exceedeth all existence."

I'm sure this is fairly(almost) clear to the reader as in these presentations the nature of evil is likewise clarified (previous chapters) but I thought the above was more germane.
The Problem of Evil: Which attribute should we drop from the Christian Notion of God Quote
10-30-2012 , 10:35 PM
I am a fan of apophatic theology but it's definitely not clear to me how it resolves the "problem of evil", could you elaborate?
The Problem of Evil: Which attribute should we drop from the Christian Notion of God Quote
10-30-2012 , 10:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by well named
I am a fan of apophatic theology but it's definitely not clear to me how it resolves the "problem of evil", could you elaborate?
What I wrote doesn't clearly resolve the problem of evil but it does display that the argumentation of the so called traits of the Godhead are not speaking of or to Him at all. If I say "G" is this or isn't this I am not even in the ballpark. thus Dionysius speaks to the Path of Negation and amazingly that Ray leads one into the divine Darkness.

As I noted , in previous chapters he speaks to evil. I particularly like this from The Divine Names ; "And thus it will be found that evil maketh contribution unto the fullness of the world, and through its presence, saveth the universe from imperfection".

I really can't do it all, for snippets from these works don't do it justice but there may be some who wish to carry on and read Dionysius the Aeropagite, who is the direct descendent and purveyor of the Christian presentation to the world. I also won't deny that other religions have similar presentations through individual men for we are all speaking to the same natures in cosmic reality.
The Problem of Evil: Which attribute should we drop from the Christian Notion of God Quote
10-30-2012 , 11:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlo
From "The Divine Names" by Dionysius the Areopagite as paraphrased by the translator. Dionysius was initiated by Paul in Athens and can be referenced in the Acts of the Apostles.

From Chapter 5:

"The Ultimate Godhead is reached only by the Negative Path and known only by unknowing. The Affirmative Path of philosophical knowledge leads only to the differentiated manifestations of the Godhead: e.g the Trinity, in its creative and redemptive activities, is known by the Affirmative Method, but behind these activities and the faculty for them lies an ultimate Mystery where the Persons transcend Themselves and are fused (though not confused)."

Specifically Dionysius states "But this much we must say, that it is not the purpose of our discourse to reveal the Super-Essential Nature (for this is unutterable, nor can we know It, or in anywise express It, and it is beyond even the Unity), but only to celebrate the Emanation of the Absolute Divine Essence into the universe of things."

Likewise, in "The Mystical Theology", chapter 1, of Dionysius he states "For, by the unceasing and absolute renunciation of thyself and all things, thou shalt in pureness cast all things aside, and be released from all, and so shall be led upwards to the Ray of that divine Darkness which exceedeth all existence."

I'm sure this is fairly(almost) clear to the reader as in these presentations the nature of evil is likewise clarified (previous chapters) but I thought the above was more germane.
Just to prevent confusion, it has been widely accepted for centuries that the "Dionysius" that wrote the works referred to here is not Dionysius the Areopagite (the convert of Paul referred to in Acts), but a 5th and 6th century Neoplatonic Christian.
The Problem of Evil: Which attribute should we drop from the Christian Notion of God Quote
10-30-2012 , 11:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nooberftw
hes the axiom the whole world is built on
there is no good or bad without him
Just so long as you agree that according to your understanding of "good," it would be tautological, and thus meaningless, to say that god is good.
The Problem of Evil: Which attribute should we drop from the Christian Notion of God Quote
10-31-2012 , 12:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position
Just so long as you agree that according to your understanding of "good," it would be tautological, and thus meaningless, to say that god is good.
no because its built into our souls
i dont believe in moral relativism
The Problem of Evil: Which attribute should we drop from the Christian Notion of God Quote
10-31-2012 , 01:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nooberftw
no because its built into our souls
i dont believe in moral relativism
If acting "good" means acting like god and being "good" means being like god, then claiming that god is good is the same thing as saying that god is like god. That is a tautology and hence not meaningful.

All this other stuff about relativism or being built into souls or whatever isn't relevant.
The Problem of Evil: Which attribute should we drop from the Christian Notion of God Quote
10-31-2012 , 01:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position
Just to prevent confusion, it has been widely accepted for centuries that the "Dionysius" that wrote the works referred to here is not Dionysius the Areopagite (the convert of Paul referred to in Acts), but a 5th and 6th century Neoplatonic Christian.
I'll clarify this in respect to modern scholarship. In ancient times and up to this particular time, when a leader or presenter of a particular mystery center was followed up by his students (for want of a better name) they assumed the name of the originator of the presentation. And so, the subsequent leader of the mystery center became the Dionysius.

From what I understand the original teachings were passed on through speech and later written down. Thus we have the idea of a "Pseudo Dyonysius" as presented by modern scholarship. Mystery teachings were passed from teacher to student, and subsequent Dionysius, in a very personal manner.
The Problem of Evil: Which attribute should we drop from the Christian Notion of God Quote
10-31-2012 , 08:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position
If acting "good" means acting like god and being "good" means being like god, then claiming that god is good is the same thing as saying that god is like god. That is a tautology and hence not meaningful.

All this other stuff about relativism or being built into souls or whatever isn't relevant.
im saying the good we experience corresponds with gods nature
i dont see how this is redundant

it tells people who arent christian what god is like... i guess
The Problem of Evil: Which attribute should we drop from the Christian Notion of God Quote
10-31-2012 , 11:29 AM
If everything God does is good and perfect and he capable of controlling everything, then that means that we have diverged greatly from his concepts of good and evil.

If you believe in God, then you accept the logic above. You accept that all things happen through him and that events we as a species consider evil are under God's eye good.

Thus, we have all misunderstood God's theories of good and evil. Since our ways do not follow his, even the believers who think they know it all are facing eternal damnation.
The Problem of Evil: Which attribute should we drop from the Christian Notion of God Quote
10-31-2012 , 01:09 PM
I'd like to point out that the deity described in the Book of Job, does not have the problem that the Xtian god has. The Jobian god is a mean guy who only loves himself.

That god doesn't even bother with the problem of evil, he is too caught in his omnipotence.
The Problem of Evil: Which attribute should we drop from the Christian Notion of God Quote
10-31-2012 , 01:26 PM
It strikes me that the solution that some of the posters are providing is that God is beyond human comprehension. That God is God and that is a category of being that goes beyond being itself. And that is fine but it pushes God away from the Christian god as understood and experienced by believers.

Additionally, I've been reading up on Alvin Plantinga's logical defense of the omnimax god. Plantinga's states that there is no logical inconsistency between the three omnis and the existence of evil because evil is necessary in any universe that has beings enjoying free will.

Plantinga states that were it not for the capability of doing evil, and for the fact that some free willed beings actually do evil things, then true moral goodness would not exist.

While apparently logically self consistent, this defense relies on the actual existence of freewill, which is still not clear we have. Plus it does not explain why free will is such a radioactive gift.
The Problem of Evil: Which attribute should we drop from the Christian Notion of God Quote
10-31-2012 , 02:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akileos
It strikes me that the solution that some of the posters are providing is that God is beyond human comprehension. That God is God and that is a category of being that goes beyond being itself. And that is fine but it pushes God away from the Christian god as understood and experienced by believers.
im not really saying this
more like "beyond atheist comprehension" because the problem of evil is only a problem for atheists because people who believe in god know why evil exists and know that jesus has saved us from it

all the little details of this process like why didnt god just save us all instantly without sending jesus are indeed beyond human knowledge

Last edited by nooberftw; 10-31-2012 at 02:51 PM.
The Problem of Evil: Which attribute should we drop from the Christian Notion of God Quote
10-31-2012 , 02:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nooberftw
im not really saying this
more like "beyond atheist comprehension" because the problem of evil is only a problem for atheists because people who believe in god know why evil exists and know that jesus has saved us from it

all the little details of this process like why didnt god just save us all instantly without sending jesus are indeed beyond human knowledge
atheists do not have either the logical or the evidential problem of the existence of evil while proclaiming and omnimax god.

Why is there suffering? Why do morally good people suffer at the hands of inmoral people? Those are not problems that an atheist struggles to answer while asserting the omnimaxiness of his god.
The Problem of Evil: Which attribute should we drop from the Christian Notion of God Quote
10-31-2012 , 03:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akileos
atheists do not have either the logical or the evidential problem of the existence of evil while proclaiming and omnimax god.

Why is there suffering? Why do morally good people suffer at the hands of inmoral people? Those are not problems that an atheist struggles to answer while asserting the omnimaxiness of his god.
When asked how much God cares about the problem of evil and suffering, the Christian God is the only God who can point to the cross, and say “that much.” Christ experienced rejection from God, saying, “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?” He experienced just the same suffering as many people do in many parts of the world today who are feeling isolated from God’s favor and love.

The Christian worldview is thus the only worldview which even makes an attempt at addressing this paradox. How can God be just and still forgive wicked men such as ourselves? The answer lies in the cross of Christ and that alone.
The Problem of Evil: Which attribute should we drop from the Christian Notion of God Quote
10-31-2012 , 04:58 PM
Humans - Created Sick: Commanded to be Sound (Fulke Greville)
The Problem of Evil: Which attribute should we drop from the Christian Notion of God Quote
10-31-2012 , 05:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Husker
Humans - Created Sick: Commanded to be Sound (Fulke Greville)

Humans - Created Sound: Condemned for being Sick
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10-31-2012 , 05:23 PM
Can't be created sound if we're born sinners.
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