man not big on discipline eh

Is the example I provided a valid example?

One could find the existence of evil as proof FOR the existence of God.

Just sayin'.

The existence of evil may be proof for the existence of the devil.

The existence of both good and evil may be proof for the existence of a God like that from the Old Testament who has both good and evil things. However our universe has more evil in it than good (animals must eat other animals to survive, or destroy plants who are a form of life, natural disasters, humans are made to be egoistic, life is too short to have any meaning).

Believing in a benevolent God is very tough in our universe. Believing in a benevolent and all powerful God is illogic.

Is an animal eating another animal an example of evil? What if animals do not possess consciousness? Perhaps the death of an animal is no more significant than my shutting my computer down at night?

There is no actual test of the existence of consciousness in any creature. In the absence of that test, assignment of evil becomes an exercise in assumption. That reduces your conclusion about the existence of a benevolent God to an assumption, not an exercise in logic.

So...

1. You can't know what is Good or Evil.
2. God decides what is good and what is evil.
3. God is good.

Sure, it works in the sense that you don't need to ask any questions. But it is also rather Sovietesque; "don't question the state, the state knows what is best".

I mean... why even have theology. If human understanding is so utterly incapable of understanding or grasping even the most basic of ethics, the concept or religious authority or understanding seems counter-intuitive to say the least.

That is not quite the point I was trying to make.

My point is that you cannot conclude that the concept of a benevolent God is rendered untenable by the existence of elements that appear "evil" in our experience. I was not at all arguing a "God is good" conclusion. Only that there is no "God is not good" conclusion either.

In your 3 points above the only one that I was asserting was #1.

The entire exercise of thinking about God, etc. is ultimately about how you are going to live your life. In the end you are going to live your life under a set of assumptions because it is almost obvious that we will never know the nature of our situation exactly. Those assumptions should be chosen with the best possible understanding of what we can know. But the main thrust of this thread's OP was that the concept of a benevolent God can be discarded on the basis of "The Problem of Evil". My entire point is that discarding that concept is flawed and incorrect and should not be relied upon in the construction of one's life assumptions. Restated, I am not arguing that God is good (whatever I might personally believe). Only that the possibility that God is good cannot be discarded.

Without God, defining good / evil is simply an opinion.

It doesn't matter if X is good if your brain interprets it as being evil. An evil god would make good things to appear evil to the brain. The human brain has negative emotions like hate, fear, envy. If a good god created these, why did he create negative emotions?

I am not sure I agree with any of the statements that you have made.

Are you absolutely sure about this? What if you later find that you interpretation was incorrect. Things that I thought were evil etc. when I was young I now view in a more nuanced manner. Good and evil are not perceptions like green or red. They are moral judgments that can change as we grow.

You are going to have to show your work on this one. It seems much more likely that an evil god might make evil things appear good to the brain if he could although even that seems like a lot of work for a creator who essentially wants to accomplish evil.


To some extent negative emotions are beneficial. Fear certainly has a valid survival value. Envy is an emotion that can be destructive, but it is also a possible positive. One can become emotionally stronger by recognizing envy and dealing with that negative feeling in a positive way. The same is true of hate. Those things can make us stronger if we recognize them as negatives and refuse to let them control. And perhaps that is the answer to your question.

Of course, there is the equally speculative but possible answer that negative emotions are an inescapable aspect of the structure of a creature with free will, so that we could not be created without them.

This is because we see life differently. I don't even believe in free will. And happiness is what I want from a good god.


Some people aren't smart enough to find that their interpration was incorrect. And they will suffer when evil things according to their brain happens to them. An objective heaven/hell can't exist because what is heaven for someone may be hell/heaven for others. It can only exist if people are designed to perceive things in the same way.


If only "evil" existed in the world but all the brains would perceive that "evil"as heaven everyone would be happy. A good god would care about happiness. Happiness is heaven and sadness is hell and these are subjective emotions depending on the brain. A good god would eliminate the negative emotions for all people and animals (if he has enough power).


Survival value? But a good god would make people happy and immortal. You say these things with materialism in mind. People are designed to care mainly about themselves (they're egoistic). People could have been designed to care mainly about others. If everyone would love their enemies there wouldn't be any enemies. I don't believe in free will and a good god would have created people without free will who are designed to make only good (someone who makes only good doesn't have free will).

Good is what makes you happy, evil is what makes you sad. Of course this is subjective and it varies from one person to another.

OK. I think I understand your point of view. It is all about your happiness. That is your ultimate and defining measure. Not really a lot of depth to plumb here. Carry on.

I no longer agree with what I said in this thread. I changed my mind. I now believe in free will. And with reincarnation you can easily explain the problem of evil.

God made spiritual beings in his own image with free will. Free will means God can’t know with 100% precision what the beings will do. He also made the law of karma. If someone makes something to others that something will be made upon himself. Because of this you should not do to others what you don’t want others to do to you. Otherwise you will experience the law of karma. The purpose of karma is not revenge but is to make the spirits understand what is good to do and what is bad to do, it is to protect the good spirits from the evil ones and maybe as a deterrent. There is still logic in what God does and there are still laws that must be respected. God is not a magician who doesn’t follow the rules of logic and of physics. Because God gave the beings free will he can’t command them anymore what to do. So because of free will God loses his omnipotence. The beings were like God and they could create new realms and new things only with the power of imagination. They probably created the hell realms and possibly the material world. They can reincarnate in other realms and can even create worlds in which they will forget their true identity during their lives in those realms. The brain acts as a receiver for the consciousness and doesn’t create the consciousness but can influence its behavior. Because of the law of karma the spirits are trapped in the hellish realms and in the material world. Negative karma must be paid. Maybe a lot of reincarnations are needed and a lot of torture in the hell to pay for someone’s bad deeds in the other lives. This wasn’t the original world God created but was a consequence of the free will of the evil beings. This is why the world needed someone to save them. Jesus Christ took all the bad karma upon himself when he died so that humans can go directly to heaven without going through the hell or through other reincarnations in the material world. But those that want to be saved must believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God or at least believe in forgiveness (in the Bible it says to believe in Him, but this can be interpreted to believe in what He says even though you don’t believe in Him as the Son of God). Jesus says in the Bible you will be judged by how you judge others. If you don’t judge others you will not be judged. If you don’t forgive others God won’t forgive you (of your negative karma). Christianity teaches forgiveness, something the asiatic religions or judaism don’t teach, because they believe in the law of an eye for an eye. So if someone is going to choose a religion the rational decision is to choose a New Testament based religion over other religions. Because the other religions won’t save them from hell because of their bad karma. Because of the possibility of the existence of hell and of the law of karma it is a bad wager to don’t believe in forgiveness and I strongly think it’s better to be a pacifist atheist than a hinduist or a buddhist. Either stick to a New Testament based religion or don’t have any religion at all.

There is evidence in the Bible about reincarnation: http://www.markmason.net/ch16ex1.htm