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Originally Posted by Original Position
I've already explained this. First, the Bible isn't clear that god doesn't change his mind. Insofar as that is true, there is no mystery here at all.
Yes you have but I still have two issues with this. First that bible is inconsistent and contradictory and I don't regard it as a reliable source of knowledge about god. And secondly, that it doesn't seem logical that god's mind could be changed unless he isn't omniscient and I don't think that Christians would agree with that condition. Pre-determinism precludes changing god's mind, and as you say, what you suggest below is not changing god's mind, it's causing actions to occur that god has allowed for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position
Second, it is entirely conceivable that God has set up a system where his actions are contingent on our prayer. If so, he isn't "changing his mind" when he does x because we prayed. Under this kind of system whether or not God does x depends on whether we pray, even though God isn't changing his mind about whether or not to do x.
Thank you, I understand this. So it seems that in this scenario, someone seeking to change anything through praying to god, can at best hope that god has allowed for an action contingent on that prayer being made. What they can't do is stop anything that god has already decided to allow to happen, or vice versa.
This creates some intriguing possibilities and raises some difficult questions. Suppose person A prays for event X, but that can only actually occur if a million other events have previously occurred that could only occur if people prayed for them to happen, and somewhere in that chain of events, someone didn't make the required pray. Now person A doesn't get what they wanted, no matter that they prayed for it, and it's not because of god, they were in fact let down by someone who failed to make the appropriate prayer at the right time. What responsibilities does this place on us? Should we all pray for everything that could possibly occur, including things that are in conflict with each other, in case god has planned for it to happen or in case someone further down the line relies on us having done that? What if what we pray for prevents something another person's prayer from causing an event, is there then a responsibility to not pray to prevent that happening? What if you get what you prayed for but that sets in motion a chain of events leading to an unwelcome outcome for one or more people?
What if people pray for conflicting things, is god's choice of what will actually occur arbitrary?