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Peter the Great, genuflection, self-immolation Peter the Great, genuflection, self-immolation

05-18-2015 , 10:49 PM
Many years ago I read Peter the Great by Robert K. Massie. One detail I remember is that Russians back then crossed themselves holding out either 2 or 3 fingers (I can't remember which) but one of Peter's reforms was to declare that it should be done the other way (either 3 or 2, I can't remember which).

People were so set in their ways that some people set their houses on fire with them and their family inside and burned to death rather than genuflect the "incorrect" way.

Anyone have any clue if this is based on fact? I am having a hell of a time googling the phenomenon, or figuring out if Massie's book is considered historically reliable (although I know Massie is a historian and an authority on the Russian monarchy).
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05-18-2015 , 11:06 PM
To "genuflect" is to bend on one knee and return to the standing position, as a sign of respect, deference, worship, nothing to do with fingers. Don't know about the 2 or 3 fingers but the "sign of the cross" , in the Russian Orthodox Church , goes to right first whereas in the Roman Catholic Church it is accomplished going to the left first.
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05-19-2015 , 03:37 PM
Genuflect was the wrong word choice. But in case it is unclear, I'm talking about the configuration of your fingers (how many are contracted, how many are extended) on your active hand when making the sign of the cross.

Edit: I suppose it is possible it was right to left versus left to right, but I am pretty sure I remember fingers. In any case, still would be greatly interested in any kind of reference or documentation, and especially of people committing suicide and killing their families rather than complying with the change.

Edit 2: Can someone move this to History?
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05-19-2015 , 03:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmr
Genuflect was the wrong word choice. But in case it is unclear, I'm talking about the configuration of your fingers (how many are contracted, how many are extended) on your active hand when making the sign of the cross.

Edit: I suppose it is possible it was right to left versus left to right, but I am pretty sure I remember fingers. In any case, still would be greatly interested in any kind of reference or documentation, and especially of people committing suicide and killing their families rather than complying with the change.

Edit 2: Can someone move this to History?
This should clarify the schism between "Old Believers ' and the Russian Orthodox Church which includes reference to fingers used ( and position) during the making of the Sign of the Cross .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Believers
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05-19-2015 , 09:39 PM
Thank you. I take back all the bad things I've written about you over the years.
Peter the Great, genuflection, self-immolation Quote
05-19-2015 , 10:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmr
Thank you. I take back all the bad things I've written about you over the years.
You're welcome.

And oh, yea, thank you for posting this, of which i enjoyed reading; not having much background/understanding of the Russian Orthodox Church or Russia in general.

Last edited by carlo; 05-19-2015 at 11:01 PM.
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