Ugh, do I really need to spell this out for you? The debates were about Christianity. The atheists brought up many good arguments against Christianity, and the concept of a loving/all-powerful God, etc...the Christians could not adequately respond to these arguments. Over time I realized Christianity doesn't make a lick of sense. There were other factors that led me to giving up my faith, but this was a part of it. I'm going out for the evening now so that's it for me.

Merry Christmas then.

I'm taking off for a while, too.

stormstarter do you understand why your drowning baby question is a fail?

It's a fail because the typical believer would not regard God as being as low as mankind in his behavior.


Thomas Aquinas in the Summa Theological, lists the seven gifts as follows:

Wisdom: We see God at work in our lives and in the world. For the wise, the wonders of nature, historical events, and the ups and downs of life take on deeper meaning. We see God as our Father, appreciate the dignity of others, and find God in all things.

Understanding: In understanding, we comprehend how we need to live as followers of Christ. A person with understanding is not confused by the conflicting messages in our culture about the right way to live. The gift of understanding perfects a person's speculative reason in the apprehension of truth. It is the gift whereby self-evident principles are known, Aquinas writes.

Counsel (Right Judgment): With the gift of counsel/right judgment, we know the difference between right and wrong, and we choose to do what is right. A person with right judgment avoids sin and lives out the values taught by Jesus.

Fortitude (Courage): With the gift of fortitude/courage, we overcome our fear and are willing to take risks as a follower of Jesus Christ. A person with courage is willing to stand up for what is right in the sight of God, even if it means accepting rejection, verbal abuse, or physical harm. The gift of courage allows people the firmness of mind that is required both in doing good and in enduring evil.

Knowledge: With the gift of knowledge, we understand the meaning of God. The gift of knowledge is more than an accumulation of facts.

Piety (Reverence): With the gift of reverence, sometimes called piety, we have a deep sense of respect for God and the church. A person with reverence recognizes our total reliance on God and comes before God with humility, trust, and love. Piety is the gift whereby, at the Holy Spirit's instigation, we pay worship and duty to God as our Father, Aquinas writes.

Fear of the Lord (Wonder and Awe): With the gift of fear of the Lord we are aware of the glory and majesty of God. A person with wonder and awe knows that God is the perfection of all we desire: perfect knowledge, perfect goodness, perfect power, and perfect love. This gift is described by Aquinas as a fear of separating oneself from God. He describes the gift as a "filial fear," like a child's fear of offending his father, rather than a "servile fear," that is, a fear of punishment. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom (Prov 1:7) because it puts our mindset in correct location with respect to God: we are the finite, dependent creatures, and He is the infinite, all-powerful Creator.

Through faith Christians know their is a difference between God and ordinary human beings.

And we don't ask repugnant questions designed at denying him His Glory.

I don't understand everything in the world or everything about God but I do know that God is good and the 7 gifts of the Holy Spirit resist asking repugnant questions designed at denying me that knowledge.