Is this part serious? Additionally, you need to explain why 918 people voluntarily committed suicide at Jonestown. There's nothing unique about the Apostles. Countless people have died and endured torture for their religious beliefs.

I'd call this a confused analogy.

Martyrs and suicides aren't the same thing.

A martyrdom is closer to an assasination than a suicide imo.

The distinction is not relevant IMO. In your OP you said "you would have to explain why people went to their deaths..." But, as shown, a multitude of people have gone to their deaths for a belief. the apostles aren't very special in this regard.

There are countless martyrs from many different religions. Again, nothing unique about the Apostles. So, to claim it as an indication of the veracity of Christianity, you have to explain away all the other religious martyrs.

You and Complete Degennin really don't analyze things well do you.

You both just obfuscate as do a lot of atheists on here. This is not the first time an atheist on here has confused a martyrdom with a suicide.

You have to analyze things situationally. Jonestown has nothing to do with the Apostles under a Roman government. It's an invalid comparison.

I really don't believe a lot of atheists can make fine distinctions in their minds about events or people types.

There's a reason assasination, martyrdom and suicide are all different words. They're different because each situation is qualitatively different.

why so defensive?

I never said they were identically similar, I simply said in both cases, you have people dying for their beliefs. Can you tell me what the fundamental difference is here? They had a belief they were willing to die for, I don't quite see how manner of death is all that relevant.

Not that it matters anyway, because as CD said, you would still have to account for martyrs of other faiths

It's significant because there's no record of anyone being martyred for Horus afaik.

The Gospel accounts significantly stressed that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. It's a huge doctrinal point that he died and rose again in the flesh.

The martyrdom of the Apostles is a testament that they witnessed this fact. They didn't recant under pressure and none of them were tricked like many of the Jonestown people were.

There's no reason to analogize Jonestown to the Apostles except it pleases people to do so. Atheists as a group aren't licensed psychiatrists and assuming the Apostles were the same as Jonestown is just that: an assumption and an unverifiable one at that.

Forget Jonestown. There are countless martyrs across many religions. Again, why are you claiming that the Apostles are different than the others?

She's making a fancy distinction between people dying for what the believe to be true vs. people dying for what they know is a lie. For example, the 9/11 terrorists believed they were martyrs for Allah. The Apostles actually lived and ate with Christ, and if they knew he was a fraud they never would have willfully died for him.

The problem is that it still doesn't hold up. People have always 'known' a truth they were willing to die for, while the rest of the world recognized their 'truth' as a lie. Jonestown is just one such example. There were some who tried to escape, but a vast number of people were willing to die for the 'truth' they knew, having lived with Jones. Repeat for the Branch Davidians, Heaven's Gate, etc. These 'martyrs' all died for what they knew to be true. But their deaths still don't change the evidence, and still don't make their beliefs true.

Yeah, and that kind of thing isn't even restricted to religion. People have been tortured and died for political/tribal leaders as well because of how strongly they believed in them. Still nothing unique about the Apostles. Historically, it is quite easy to trick people into sacrificing themselves.

Like I said, it pleases you to make false comparisons.

If you were sitting on a jury assessing a case are you going to study the situtation and the timelines and the motives, etc. Or are you going to draw a comparison to an irrelevant case to arrive at the truth?

I'm doing the first. You're doing the second. Because you want to justify your unbelief.

Please refute the point.

Which false comparisons? If I were sitting on a jury, unprejudiced by my own upbringing and religious beliefs, it would take extreme evidence to justify the apostles died for a reason dissimilar from the countless other martyrs throughout history. Please supply that evidence.

You brought up the jury. Let's put your beliefs on trial.

I already refuted it.

You study things on a case by case basis if you want to arrive at the truth. You don't preconceive and draw false analogies before approaching the evidence and accounts of it.

Why do you think they move cases from one jurisdiction to another to try them? They want an unprejudiced jury for a fair hearing is why.

Your comparison to Jonestown shows your prejudiced mindset. You can't assess the Gospels unless you drop the world's baggage.

Splendour, the point of the analogy is about how we determine truth.

Were the Apostles right about Jesus because they willing to die for their faith? You seem to be saying 'yes'.

Were the Jonestown acolytes also right about what they believed because they too were willing to die for their faith? You seem to be saying 'no'.

Now, why were the Apostles correct when they died for their convictions, but the Jonestown acolytes incorrect?

Your response to this analogy is that the Apostles were murdered whereas the Jonestown acolytes committed suicide. That doesn't address the point of the analogy at all. It is an irrelevant difference.
The point of the analogy is that both groups died for their convictions, but you only seem to think that one group is correct.

The implication is that, although you seem to imply that dying for one's beliefs is evidence that one is correct, you don't apply that principle consistently. Your reasons for believing the Apostles seems to be based on something else.

Well you need more info to see my point.

The Apostles were eye witnesses. They saw Jesus before and after the Resurrection in the flesh. God even supplied a skeptic: Thomas.

Take the time to study the number of people who claimed to witness Jesus before and after the Resurrection. It was not a small number. Jesus always attracted multitudes.