What really tilts me is that theists (of the Christian variety at least) are so happy to believe that they have in effect been dumped in the midst of such a weird game with such whacko rules.

Basically ...

1. God made us ...

2. ... and He made the rules ...

3. ... but He made us so that we are designed to break the rules (ie, by virtue of original sin), and He knows that we will in fact all break them to a greater or lesser degree for most of our lives

4. Further, while some of us are "lucky" enough to get told what the rules are (and thus at least get a token chip to go with our chair), most of the planet will never even know that the tournament is being played, let alone that they're entered into it (rural Chinese peasants, Australian aborigines, remote South American Indian tribes, etc)

... so basically the vast majority of His own creation are just totally forked, getting blinded out blissfully ignorant, and will be rudely awoken once eternity kicks off and they find out that they'll be spending it keeping warm and toasty with Lucifer and his minions

(altho, if you believe the Catholics, some of us might get to spend some of it in Purgatory, which is probably kinda like being in one of the overflow rooms at one of those mega-churches in TX in the middle of a heatwave ... it's better than being outside and you can see the good stuff on the big screen, but the air con don't work so good so you do get a bit uncomfortable wedged in next to that fat sweaty truck driver who obviously hasn't showered in a bit)

What in heaven's name drove God to create such a perverse game? If He knows the heart of man, why put us all through this massive waste of his and our time? Why not just cut to the chase, skip the Earthly trials bit, and simply put the worthy into heaven from the outset?

What a colossal and painful waste of time and effort ... and for the record, I object to being toyed with in this way, even by a deity, no matter how perfect he thinks he is.

God Created everything good.

Do you know what free will is yet? It is man messing it all up making this world perverse. Not God. You even get mad when God intervenes and fixes our problems.

volcanoes, hurricanes etc are all good?

i would include evil despots like hitler and stalin , but free will is a bitch.

still, not to orry i am doomed to the same fate as those mass murderers because i don't believe.

and christians think muslims are mad..........

And the crappy bits? Don't say Satan did ... 'cos presumably God created Satan too?

Ye Gads, do we have to go down that dusty camel track again?

Nuh-uh ... God don't get no free ride on that one. If God made man to behave in a certain way, then he needs to take responsibility when man does what God designed him to. Classic case of flawed product design IMO, and great opportunity for a huge product liability class action if Big G ever sets foot anywhere within my jurisdiction.

No, I get mad when he builds us to make problems, and in some cases manufactures them all on his lonesome.

Take the Israelites heading into Israel for example, ethno-cleansing the locals on the way in (Exodus 23) ... why did he have to direct them to go there? Even without Google Maps, why couldn't he just have picked somewhere that was uninhabited? What's so special about that specific patch of sand?

Surely even on a bad day He could have fore-told that the poop was heading for the fan on that one? And now 6,000 years later (give or take), we must just accept the consequences of His bad navigation decisions? When's He going to intervene and fix that one already?

Everything was a result of sin.

I guess so cuz you still don't get it.

God did not make man to disobey Him. That was man's choice. He gave us free will, and we went the other way with it.
We build the problems, not God. He gave us rules to follow that prevent problems, and we just don't follow them. Really not going to get into this further because this has been discussed over and over. I suggest you go read other threads since you are new.

God works in mysterious ways. Anyone saying anything else is a blasphemist and should, by their own belief, burn in hell.

Nice smug answers that all dodge the point of the OP. I'll only bother with one:

If I recall my Catholic upbringing correctly, Satan tempts man and inspires sin. Yet Satan is not a man, doesn't have free will, and presumably was created by God solely to tempt Man.

The reality is that sin only happens because God created Man to be:

a. capable of sin; and
b. more likely to sin than not.

That was God's choice, not ours. After that, everything else is detail really.

He could have chosen to design us the other way round, whereby we could all have been born pure and on balance behave pretty decently all our lives. Just 'cos he screwed up with Adam and Eve doesn't mean that the rest of of humanity should suffer for the rest of eternity. Most people try fix it when their first product goes wrong ... yet instead of a product recall God shoves more faulty merch on the shelves? What's the point of that?

So back to the point ... God made this little game, and He's watching us shuffle around the board according to the rules that he set out. See OP. WTF for?

SPF 666 for me then

There´s alot of storys about how we came to the earth, how the earth came to us. You can read the bible, you can read like 10000 books and still you WONT find 1 answer beeing the same on how he was thinking, how he did.

Im happy me/you came to the world. Im happy with that. But sure, how did he think? None knows

always loved this scene


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DMDscGOUpg

Why does this tilt you, Shank? What in you is upset by what you go on to describe? This is the #1 question I'd like answered, if you're willing.

It's more that He IS the rules than that He made the rules, but He also made the rules so that's fine. But if you understood the aspect that He IS the rules, you'd have a far easier time understanding the Christian position.

Time out. Why do you equate original sin with God designing us to break the rules? This is a false connection. God designed us to obey the rules, being made in His image-having the ability to reason, knowing God from the inside as well as outwardly, being free to think. It was man's choice to rebel which genetically thrust us into "original sin". Shouldn't you be mad at Adam? How are you able to blame God for this?

Good thing He was gracious and merciful enough to do something about it!

1. Romans 1 teaches that the created order is evidence of our Creator God, even His divine attributes and eternal nature.

2. All human beings have a conscience which is a general understanding of right and wrong which can lead them to a general understanding of God in a sense (Romans 2).

3. God has set the idea of eternality in man's heart (Ecclesiastes 3:11).

4. God promises everyone who seeks Him will find Him (Matthew 7, etc.), and God will send the gospel to someone who is a true seeker (Romans 10). You fail to realize that God is sovereign--that a rural Chinese peasant or remote South American Indian tribesman who has a humble heart to acknowledge the Creator and is truly seeking God although he doesn't have the full understanding of who He is, God will send the gospel message to that person. This is promised.

I say all that to say this: all people have external evidence of God in the created order and internal evidence of God in themselves, being souls with consciences and the understanding of eternity, and all who seek God, God will let them find Him, as He promised.

Hope this helps-gotta go to the Celtics game!

It's pretty funny what the uneducated people come up with in regards to god. Just read a bible talk to a pastor and ask him questions before you come here going crazy and overreacting to what is surely nothing.

All the evil things in the world are the result of evolution clearly.

Other way around.

I was brought up Catholic and do not ever recall Satan not having free will in Catholic doctrine. Not that I think your post has any merit at all, but making up doctrine to support a position is not very impressive. Of course, if you have documentation to support your assertion I will withdraw the comment.

Megenoita, I often feel sad for you thinking Christian types that the men who invented your beliefs didn't think through the implications of omniscience a bit more deeply than simply giving themselves the escape chute of free will. The problem remains that God can make you free to choose but he is perfectly aware of what you will choose. You are stuck with a god who knowingly built you to sin and then punishes you for his own handiwork or who makes himself wilfully blind to the consequences of giving you free will.

Neither is very appealing and theologians have basically had to deal with it by handwaving. I realise that you will take this as an invitation to wave hands but we could just go for "God is mysterious" and leave it at that if you like.

Satan has free will. Every rational being that we know of, God created with free will.

Angels, being advanced in their intellect, made their choice instantly - they saw God and for whatever reason decided to rebel against Him, we believe it was the sin of pride (didn't want to worship a human Jesus, veneration of his mother)

But yes, I cannot fathom God's creating of beings who he knew would turn against Him, such as the fallen angels. This is a question humans simply can't answer with accuracy - we will know when we get to heaven.

Can you please provide proof of your education credentials, since you are so keen to place "uneducated people" below you? If you don't reply here I may feel obliged to create a thread solely to embarrass you for this comment.

Regards,
rizeagainst

Glad you made this post so I didn't have to. Carry on.

**** your God

I don't believe in God.

Indeed ... Pacino's Satan gets it right on the money:

george carlin used to pray to joe pesci.

i think i'll start praying to al. or maybe di nero.

Utter tosh. By definition, Satan is pure evil ... where's the free will in that?

Satan (let alone the concept thereof) is rational? It's rational to spend your entire existence tempting the Lord's flock into murder, genocide, pillage, rape, etc for nothing more than lulz? Wow ... right there, that just says a whole bunch about the theistic thought process ...

Is this the ultimate proof of the causal link between intelligence and atheism?

Seriously ... I know that theism is mainly based on claims that will never be verifiable, but please at least try stick to claims that are logical. Crazy dogma has no place in a rational discussion.