Yeah, that's what I meant by independent. I think there are bigoted religious people and bigoted atheists. I don't think one's religious views impact on whether you're a white supremacist.

Yeah, you can really think bunny.

Not that i disagree that there are bigots of all flavors.

But if you were brought up as a kid in the religious teaching of say a white supremacist church, or the equivalent for other religions, that would have to have some impact.

I mean there are religious teachings which promote bigotry, racial and otherwise, and it is something you can teach your children. So i dont understand how there would be no impact teaching your child that they are descendants of Adam and Eve and the other races are not and lesser for it.

All religion's true? Wow that's even worse. In other news, I heard James taylor is covering FU, except he's changing the lyrics a bit. Now it goes:

"I see you driving round town with the girl I love and I'm like: you seem like a great guy, I'm sure all of this was for the best"

I like Shatners cover. NSFWish

I think a bigot who was religious might teach their kids that, a nonbigotted religious person would provide some other interpretation. I think an atheist bigot would go on about "inferior races" and provide some uneducated genetic justification.

It is of course true that some atheists are overconfident in their own rationalism. However, I often find that this accusation when made by theists is misleading. In fact, I think that if anything atheists are typically less confident in the ability of reason to provide them with correct answers about the world as compared to theists (for instance--I probably have less confidence in reason than our more rationalist Christian posters, e.g. Jibninjas and NotReady).

What I think the theist actually means to accuse the atheists of is that they lack any confidence in non-rational forms of beliefs. In other words, while atheists and theists have similar levels of confidence in reason (although as I said I think theists typically have more), theists also have confidence in non-reasoned beliefs as well and atheists typically don't. Thus, the atheist is actually being accused of an overconfidence in reason because this is the only thing that she is willing to accept, not because her confidence in reason is higher than that of the theist.

Is a kid who is taught the bigoted idea that they are descended form Adam and Eve and that other races are impure because they are not, affected by that teaching? I think the answer is yes and i would rather not have that taught because i think children can be influenced by that idea and become bigoted from that teaching.

So the question is is that a religious teaching? I think it is. If it is then religion can be bigoted in its teachings.

If its not then im not sure there are any religious teachings. You cant just claim the good teachings as religious teachings and dismiss the bad ones.

Sometimes religion teaches the idea for people not to be bigoted, like the Quakers did and most Christians today do. Sometimes religion teaches people to be bigoted, like some white supremacist churches did and do. If the seconded one is false the first one is false and religion teaches noting and has no ideas that have impact on others.

Exactly.

Well... i dont agree religion teaches nothing and has no impact but at least you are consistent.

Religion isn't an actor. It can't do anything. Bad people do bad things using whatever system of thought they utilize.

To be clear, im speaking purely from experience - there may well be a correlation, though good luck finding a suitably controlled study. I haven't seen any tendency for either atheists or theists to be more drawn to white supremacist views than the other.

Like i said i disagree. I think there are religious teachings and religion taught me some good ideas and some bad ones.

Yeah well I used to argue people can just know things intuitively but then all the atheists got argumentative over that and tried to falsify intuition but a lot of geniouses claim to be inspired through their intuitions.

They wouldn't accept it when I pointed out that some personality types are more intuitive than logical.

I think God has given us everything through psycho-logic. Without the psychological side of things you only have half the ladder to heaven.

Btw I think God predicted the rise of Mohammed back in Genesis.

Esau said to his father, “Do you have only one blessing, my father? Bless me too, my father!” Then Esau wept aloud.

39 His father Isaac answered him,

“Your dwelling will be
away from the earth’s richness,
away from the dew of heaven above.
40 You will live by the sword
and you will serve your brother.
But when you grow restless,
you will throw his yoke
from off your neck.”


The twelve tribes of Arabia trace their lineage back to Esau and Ishmael and Mohammed conquered by the sword.

Right, and my point is that what you call "intuition" here is what the atheists I'm describing are skeptical of. This is not, however, due to their greater confidence in reason.

Yeah, well I think God makes everyone who he is. He could have constructed Christian Apologist minds along a certain path.

For instance, some people are born with such a facility for language that it crowds out their ability to do other intellectual functions like math.

Now do you think that's a natural outgrowth of physiology or designed by God.

I think it's designed by God. It takes all kinds of people to make up a world and God knows that but science doesn't. Not when it gives all the credit to scientific discoveries. Science takes all the humanity and godliness out of people.

I have a lot of respect for you OrP.

I hope you're careful with your words because I believe words have power in this world. Look at one of the other atheists endorsing a "manifesto" in another thread. People swore blood oaths to Hitler in contradiction to the Semon on the Mount and look what happened to them.

OrP your indecisiveness reminds me of Gamaliel in the book of Acts.

34Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space;

35And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men.

36For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought.

37After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.

38And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:

39But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

40And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.


Wiersbe in his Chapter-by-Chapter Bible Commentary says this about Gamaliel's hesitation:

"Gamaliel advised neutrality, which means avoiding the truth and letting Satan move in (Matt. 12:30, 43-45). With all the evidence they had seen, the council's neutrality was actually dishonesty."

William James says "There is no more miserable human being than one in whom nothing is habitual but indecision."

Gamaliel was a great teacher and leader but he should have taken a stand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamaliel

There's also a Gamaliel who's a descendant of Joseph in the book of Numbers, chapters 1 through 8.

I don't know why everyone acts like God doesn't love atheists. Everyone is precious to God. God has numbered the hairs on everyone's head.

God even sent Jesus Christ down to beat the devil on the Cross. He did that because he loved everyone. Love is a greater motivator than hate ever was and it has a steadying influence on people.

How Deep the Father's Love For Us:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vmY2ztb5xc

Splendour, not every thought that pops into your psycho-logic brain is of God. Regardless of your intentions for opening up your psyche and intuition, it is also an opening for the works and effects of the enemy. Be well.

How do you know which ones are of god and which ones arent?

The Bible should be the litmus test. Also prayer.

But, there is no litmus test. since thoughts from devil are same as thoughts from god are same as normal thoughts ( theres no labelling saying which is which) then its purely subjective as to where you decide the thought comes from. The bible and prayer are no practical help, because thoughts about bible verses, or thoughts that come in response to prayer, are still open to the same subjective interpretation

Atheist rhetoric is designed at destroying the oneness people feel with God.

Imagine there's a pregnant woman and you're the baby she's carrying but people out in the world keep trying to force feed your mom junk food and pollutants while you're in utero. Wouldn't that disturb the purity of your environment and ultimately affect you on multiple levels in the future?

God is people's All in All.

Atheists make the world angry at them because there's no reason to describe God in the impure terms they do when people are in spiritual utero in this world and dependent on Him for their spiritual development and their spiritual survival.

Atheists are insisting on allowing polluted thinking (moral relativism) in a world that needs purer thinking. People aren't screwed up by their purer thoughts. They're derailed in this world by their vices.

The ones that "pop into your" head.....are not communication of God. The reactionary thoughts that pop into your head are triggered by the environment or by other thoughts. And are completely of the individual. They are the thing that need be calmed to "hear" spiritual wisdom. You don't hear this as thoughts in the head or voice in the ears; but intuitively at the center of your being, unformed, pre-thought.

People aren't the labels that our minds assign to them. Try seeing people as people.

Our minds habitually label, for then it is easier for the mind to pull up thoughts from its encyclopedia of information it holds about each label.