This seems pretty anachronistic. I think it is fair to say that the organizational structure of the early church had some similarities to some aspects of utopian socialism and the commune movements of the nineteenth century. I also think it is fair to say that Jesus and many of his followers would have condemned some of the assumptions that underlie capitalism as an economic structure for society. While these are all elements of communist thought, communism as a political and economic doctrine goes well beyond anything found in the Christian tradition.

However, it is worth pointing out that there are fairly robust political traditions of Christian socialism in the twentieth century (most obviously in South America).

What I would say about the connection between atheism and communism is that what is really significant about communism as a political doctrine is its rejection of Enlightenment values of individualism, rights, and freedom. Sometimes this rejection is coupled with other atheistic doctrines (such as the materialism of Marx and Lenin or the anti-Christian moral psychology of Nietzsche) and sometimes it is associated with theistic doctrines (such as the Islamic fundamentalism of the Taliban, Al Quaeda or the ruling elite of Iran). However, the acceptance of these values is not really indicative of a particular leaning one way or the other with regards to theism.

For instance, well-known skeptic John Stuart Mill's On Liberty is probably regarded as the pre-eminent defense of the liberal values rejected by Marx and others. Or, you see atheist (and socialist) Bertrand Russell as one of the earliest critics of the U.S.S.R. precisely because of its rejection of these values.

Splendour, I've read some of Wurmbrand's writings, and while what he suffered was obviously a terrible injustice, it doesn't make what he says about Marx correct. In fact, his understanding of Marx is severely deficient.

I'll also say that your criticisms of Marx seem pretty unfair to me. First, Marx did work--he worked as a writer and political theorist. It is true that his income was supplemented by his friends, but philosophers and other thinkers have relied on such patronage for centuries. Second, suggesting that he was at fault for his children committing suicide seems incredibly thoughtless. Do you know the parents of someone who has committed suicide? Would you condemn them in the same way?

Orig pos. I can tell you know more of this subject then me. I simply did some Internet research on communism and religion which led me to the wiki entry on christian communism.

I think the most important thing I took from it is that there are various schools of communism and it had a rich history predating Marx or Stalin... Who most think of when they think of communism. Many of the basic tenants are in line with Christianity (and likewise, Jesus would find much wrong with capitalism)

For splendour to narrow communism to its evils and then assert that it is not only an atheistic system but also part of being an atheist is simply incorrect.

communists and atheists are like pickles and relish. wtf is the difference

Why are you people even giving credence to this broken logic?

I think it is common today to use "communism" to refer only to the versions of socialism that are related to the Marxian tradition. "Socialism" is usually considered a broader term and there are certainly Christian forms of socialism. I suppose there are probably Christian forms of communism as well, but that would certainly be a divergence from Marx.

And of course, splendour's attempt to equate communism and atheism is just a stupid debating tactic. There is nothing wrong with pointing out that she is obviously wrong (as you are here), I just think it isn't accurate to portray Jesus or the early Christians as communists. Just because someone criticizes capitalistic ideas (really just wealth-gathering) or advocates some form of sharing doesn't make you a communist.

LOL definitely stealing the pickles and relish comparison. Not commenting on the commy/atheist part, but I found this imagery really funny for some reason.

I've known quite a few people personally who were tortured by the USSR in labor camps in Siberia. A good amount of them were atheists.
Making such claims that atheism leads to communism is beyond ridiculous. Communism is first and foremost an economic system, invented by someone (Marx) with good intentions. Lenin and others have decided to experiment with communism. As we know, this experiment ended up quite badly. People in my country are still suffering from it.

But the kind of atheism communists were trying to fill people's heads with has nothing to do with true atheism. As someone pointed out already ITT, communism rejected the main ideas of modern atheism, empirism (enlightenment, etc.)

The history of humans relationship with God has been recorded beginning with the Jewish account through to the new testament. Therefore the answer to the first part of your question your question is we know this through biblical records.

How do I know he exists? Believers begin with any of these premises --- God can be known. He has revealed himself to the prophets. As a rational being he communicates. God actively seeks relationship. God has a plan, a purpose. These are premises we choose to tentatively accept as beginning believers. A non believer would choose to reject these at this point I suppose.

Just to clarify. We are not promised clear and unequivocal revelation with absolute certainty when we choose to begin a relationship with the God of Abraham and Moses and Jesus. What we are given is guidelines. Jesus particularly gives us statements such as seek (and keep seeking) until you find (and you shall find) God.

Im saying there IS NO easy way or answer to finding God. But eventually with a sincere heart you will. Sometimes life is pain and suffering is it not? And eventually each of us must face our final curtain musnt we?

You would like a reason for you to believe if someone gives it. I think each person has their own lock and there is a key which can unlock what lies dormant in their heart. I dont know what the key to your heart is. So I cant answer what might open you to God, his existence and beyond that a relationship.

Try reading the Song of Solomon, one of the old testament books. It is a love poem, and it relates to our relationship between God as the groom and us (the human race collectively and individually) as the bride. The first 5 lines read thus.

Bride -- Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth!
For your love is better than wine,
Your annointing oils are fragrant,
Your name is perfume poured out;
therefore the maidens love you.

Oh fyi im male, and not gay, just thought I needed to clarify since this Song of Solomon can be read homoerotically if you as a male put yourself in the position of bride from this pov.

I just picked up Armstrong's The History of God yesterday. I haven't read the whole of it yet but in one chapter she explains the history of human rights evolved in the West as Christians viewpoint on the nature of God changed to become increasingly more personal.

Without the God of the bible there most likely would be no human rights today. If you go back to the early Quakers and the father of Methodism John Wesley you'll see many of the greatest proponents of human rights were Christians. It's frequently the Christians that get busy changing society when the world gets ugly.

Wurmbrand could have over generalized but I still agree with him.

He's considered to be one of the 5 greatest Romanians ever and even after 14 years of torture that man never lost his saintliness.

Besides I consider him a firsthand observer of the evils of communism. That's better than any argument made up after the fact to support someone's position.

So you are admitting that you are beginning with presuppositions that are unsupported by evidence? At that point the conversation is over, because you are admitting that you have closed your mind to evidence, to proof, to actually investigating and understanding these issues. You don't get to make these bold assertions and expect anyone to accept them.

You say " A non believer would choose to reject these at this point I suppose." However, it is wrong to use the label "non believer" here. Anyone who is interested in actually determining the truth, through reason, science, skepticism, and evidence would reject those claims until proven true. It is not that atheists begin by rejecting those claims because they are atheists...It is the other way around: Theists (yourself included) are making claims that simply are not justified. It doesn't matter what we want to believe. The simple truth is what you just said is in no way supported by any evidence.

Do gay rights really supersede poor people and children now through taxation charges? Or is that a back door way of getting what you want?

The New York Times

“In the name of tolerance, we’re not being tolerated,” said Bishop Thomas J. Paprocki of the Diocese of Springfield, Ill., a civil and canon lawyer who helped drive the church’s losing battle to retain its state contracts for foster care and adoption services."

Bishops Say Rules on Gay Parents Limit Freedom of Religion

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/29/us...pagewanted=all

The mission of the Church has always been to take care of widows and orphans. It's a mission traceable back to the Old Testament.



Gary Huelsmann, executive director of Catholic Social Services of Southern Illinois, in the Belleville Diocese, said the decision was excruciating for everyone.

“We have 600 children abused and neglected in an area where there are hardly any providers,” he said. “Us going out of business would have been detrimental to these children, and that’s a sin, too.”

The work will be carried on, but the Catholic Church’s seminal, historic connection with it has been severed, noted Mr. Marlowe, the spokesman for the state’s child welfare agency. “The child welfare system that Catholic Charities helped build,” he said, “is now strong enough to survive their departure.”

Strong enough to survive the departure of a 2,000 year old charities player?

There was no charity without the Church...there never was any noteworthy charity without the influence of the church...Communities and charity are built and sustained sometimes for thousands of years by churchs and now it's out with the old and in with the new just like that?

Evidence Shmevidence IMO

Again, I don't have the expertise to argue the point other then pointing out there is a classification called Christian communists who believe early Christians were communists and cite scriptural support for it. I understand that there are many sects of Christianity and many Christians may disagree with the Christian communists.

Boo hoo.... The church can't discriminate against gays in adoption services. It's their choice to neglect the needs of children so that they can remain pure in their anti-gay behavior. It's their choice.

Are teh gayz gonna take up where Catholic Charities leaves off?

Aren't we atheists wonderful now deciding who in society's rights outranks another's. We can even disrupt historical patterns now.

The poor and children usually are the most underrepresented in society.

If an adult doesn't speak up for a child he has no voice.

Yes in fact, equal rights do supersede the church's ignorant, bigoted policies. If they are getting tax exempt status for being a charity, they damn well better follow the laws of our federal government.

No, they don't.

Anthony R. Picarello Jr., general counsel and associate general secretary of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, disagreed. “It’s true that the church doesn’t have a First Amendment right to have a government contract,” he said, “but it does have a First Amendment right not to be excluded from a contract based on its religious beliefs.”

Separation of Church and State.

People don't have the right to come into the Church and dictate to it. Taxes doesn't give them that power.

Does the state have the right to go in and tell a family living on a government issued welfare payment how to live?

No, it doesn't. It doesn't go into anybody's home and tell them how to live.

The Church is a separate entity just like a human being or a family is.

u have my blessing! 5 years from now when you hear everyone saying it, just remember who you heard it from first. lol j/k

I'm sorry, but you are mistaken. Of course the general counsel for the bishops will disagree, but he is also mistaken. You are correct to point out that a separation of church and state exists in this country. However, any organizations' ridiculous beliefs, religious or not, are not excluded from following federal laws. Sorry, you don't get an exception because you claim your policies are coming from your god....

The gays don't have to but they're welcome to. There are plenty of adoption services and charities that don't feel restricted by the bigotry of the catholic church.

And no... Atheists aren't deciding who outranks another. Non discrimination policies are created and enforced by the govt. which is run mostly by Christians but is a variety of faiths and some token atheists. So you're wrong again.

Plenty of people stand up for the poor and the children. Including people who aren't Christian, people who may be gay, Jewish, atheist, Christian... The only significance of the story you posted is that Catholics are bigoted against gays and will stop helping children and the poor if they have to treat gays as equal as non gays. Obviously Catholics and some other Christians want to decide that they and heterosexual outrank others but they're not being allowed.

The catholic church continues to mar their already muddied reputation.

Marx didn't invent communism. It's theories go back to the 16th century. He is credited with much of modern communism that arose in Europe in the last century.

I think you should go research legal definitions and find out what the word "entity" means.

Corporations, people, organizations, etc. can all be entities.

People never have the right to own other people through their taxes.

Can a person be bought?

I think the gay rights argument in the article is an argument from a slave owner mentality.

If your Daddy gives you your tuition to go to school does he get to pick your major for you? No, he doesn't. He may have given you his last bottom dollar for your well being but that doesn't give him any right to direct you on such an important issue.

I went to a bible study class once and the elder told us when he was little his friend broke something and he started to get angry with his friend. His grandmother an old Christian lady told him "Don't get mad at him. People are always worth more than things (material possessions)." Outside of the bible that's the most intelligent thing I ever heard in my life.

Those gays have no control over human beings because they paid for something. People are not cattle for sale.

Are you sure? You might wanna see what your bible has to say about that...

Regardless, I am a person. I pay taxes. So does that mean that I can break any federal law I want because the gov't doesn't own me?