Hi, Trolly.

Thank you for taking the time to research those posts and for setting the record straight for all to see.

I appreciate being corrected when I'm wrong about something.

Proverbs 12:1

Whoso loveth instruction loveth knowledge: but he that hateth reproof is brutish. (KJV)

Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but whoever hates correction is stupid. (NIV)

Even after reading those posts that you provided above, I still don't remember that conversation.

I apologize for not remembering that this issue has been engaged by me and others before.

As an aside, I wonder what other conversations here I don't remember?

Anyway, thanks again Trolly for doing the spadework (as they used to say) to set the record straight.

addendum: I definitely do not hate homosexuals.

In fact, I had a delightful Thanksgiving dinner last year at the Elk's Club as an invited guest of two gentlemen* who are legally married to each other. We all had a wonderful time.

*The gentleman who invited me is the nephew of a friend of mine.

I remember that time I said didn't think you were a troll and you corrected me. I guess a good reminder that Poe's Law goes both ways and the danger of being overly credulous.

Since you forgot the meaning the "homophobia" again you must not remember this part of the conversation either.

2-21-18
6-22-20
6-27-20
10-22-20
Your iron's getting pretty rusty there.

After the "first round" in 2018, I did more research and discovered that sodomy was actually the term typically used in law. They were called Anti-sodomy laws. The word homosexual didn't even exist until the late 19th century.

I currently agree that homophobia refers to people who hate homosexuals. By that definition, I certainly do not hate homosexuals (or anybody else, for that matter).

On a (somewhat) related point, my twenty years of taking psych meds did have a significant negative impact on my cognitive abilities. I am often told during conversations, after I tell someone something or other, that I already told them that same thing several times in the past.

I have a running gag with my friends: "I have a great memory, it's just too short!"

Please tell me more about your research, because my understanding is that originally in nineteenth-century American law sodomy was defined as "involving penetration by a male penis inside the rectum of an animal, a woman or girl, or another man or a boy." That is not referring only to homosexuals. It wasn't until the 1970s as consensual sodomy between heterosexual adults became legal that some states narrowed this prohibition to refer to only same-sex consenting adults. This was explicit in Bowers v Hardwick in the majority opinion which stated that the Constitution did not confer a "fundamental right to engage in homosexual sodomy." Justice Burger referred in a concurring opinion to the "act of homosexual sodomy."

In fact, this point was crucial to Sandra Day O'Connor's concurring opinion in Lawrence v Texas, where the Supreme Court struck down these anti-sodomy laws as unconstitutional. She claimed that anti-sodomy laws violated the equal protection clause of the Constitution because they now only banned male-male sodomy, but not male-female sodomy.

Uh-huh. The dictionary definition of "homophobia" d2_e4 gave you didn't say anything about hatred. Instead, it was defined as:

"dislike of or prejudice against gay people."

Here is the definition from Oxford English Dictionary, a more authoritative dictionary:

"Hostility towards, prejudice against, or (less commonly) fear of homosexual people or homosexuality."

Would you say that you are hostile towards homosexuality?

Seems to me the problem here isn't your bad memory, but rather that you prefer to call homosexuals "sodomites" because it has a connotation of sexual perversion and prefer a definition of "homophobia" that you think doesn't apply to yourself.

Hi, OP.

While sodomy laws usually prohibited many forms of non-procreative sex acts, what they virtually all had in common was a prohibition on homosexual sex acts. In many cases, as you pointed out, exclusively against homosexual sex starting in the 1970's.

By the way, I am opposed to laws prohibiting sex between consenting adults.


I am certainly not hostile to homosexual persons. I am commanded by Jesus to "love thy neighbor", so I love homosexuals.

Having said that , I agree with what the Bible teaches, which is that homosexual behavior is a sin. Does that make me "hostile" towards homosexuality? I'm not sure what "hostile" means in that context. I believe that adultery is a sin, so am I "hostile" to adultery? If "Lagtight believes that X is a sin" implies "Lagtight is hostile to X", then my answer to your question is "Yes." Otherwise, my answer is "No."

I use "sodomite" because I try to use the words that my King James Bible uses. If I used a Bible translation into a different language, I would typically use whatever the word that my translation used.
For example, the word "Trinity" never occurs in the Bible, even though the concept is there. My King James Bible uses the word "Godhead", so I often use that word instead of "Trinity."

As always, thank you for your typical well-researched, thoughtful post!

The point I was making there is that "sodomy" is not a synonym for homosexuality, as you sometimes seem to think. For instance, you have referred to same-sex marriage as "sodomite marriage." But this is wrong. For instance, the Supreme Court case that ruled bans against same-sex marriage unconstitutional applied to both male same-sex couples and female same-sex couples, but only the former engage in sodomy. Furthermore, many heterosexual married couples also engage in sodomy.

This is why I was highlighting specific prohibitions against homosexual sodomy. Thus, if we're having a chat about the morality of homosexuality, but you keep referring to sodomy, it gets very confusing to know what you are referring to. So what are you referring to by "sodomy" or "sodomite"?

I can't really answer this question for you. I typically think that Christians are hostile towards things they think are sinful. If you think homosexual behavior is a sin, then I would generally assume you are hostile towards homosexual behavior. I don't strongly distinguish between homosexuality and homosexual behavior, although I do between homosexuals and homosexual behavior.

The word "sodomy" is not used in the KJV. The word "sodomite" is used five times. If you look at contemporary translations of these passages, here are the words used instead of "sodomite":

NIV "male shrine prostitute"
NLT "male temple prostitute"
ESV "male cult prostitute"
NKJV "perverted one"
NASB "male cult prostitute"
Young's "whoremonger"
NRSV "temple prostitute"

Notice that none of them translate the Hebrew word here (kadesh) as "homosexual." Is it your opinion that homosexuals are temple or cult prostitutes? What if a same-sex couple are married? Are they still prostitutes? That seems strange.

I agree that sodomy does not refer only to homosexuality.

I think I've only used the term sodomite as a reference to those engaging in homosexual behavior. I think we agree that homosexuality is a subset of sodomy.


Given the rather nebulous term "hostile", I don't think that i can answer that question for me either.

What is the Hebrew word for homosexual? It might help me to answer your question.

Is your moral objection to homosexuality that it sometimes involves having anal sex? Or is it to any romantic love between people of the same sex?

We are definitely not agreed on this. For instance, lesbians are homosexuals, but do not typically engage in sodomy.

This highlights the inconsistency in your usage. "Sodomy" is typically used to refer specifically to anal sex. If that is how you mean to use it, then you shouldn't use it to refer only to those engaging in homosexual behavior, as many forms of anal sex are not homosexual and much homosexual sexual behavior does not include anal sex.

"Sodomy" has also sometimes been used to refer to a class of sexual perversions, which has historically been taken to include anal sex, but also sex with minors, with animals, oral sex, any gay sex, public masturbation, and so on. If this is what you mean by "sodomy" then no, we don't agree that homosexual behavior between consenting adults is sodomy as I don't think that is sexually perverse.

What are words? They're so confusing. As I said, it appears to me that your overriding consideration is finding a definition of "homophobia" such that you don't think it applies to yourself. Not an intellectually honest approach.

Go look it up? You are the one relying on the KJV translation as justification for your choice of terminology. I'd like to know why you are referring to gay people as temple prostitutes.

Came along for the ass-****ing. Stayed for the intellectual debate.

As a rule, I try not to use stupid words like homophobia (unless I'm trying to be funny). Anybody can define that word any way they want. If someone wishes to use the word homophobia to mean "someone who believes that homosexual behavior is morally wrong", then by their definition I am homophobic.

If someone's definition of homophobia is someone who is afraid of homosexuals, then by their definition I am not homophobic.

If you want to use a dumb word like homophobic, be my guest.

I suppose since I am "hostile" to adultery, I should be deemed a adulterphobe? I suspect that people who are "hostile" to Donald Trump should be called Trumpophobes.

I think I'll start calling atheists Godophobes. Are you kewl with that?

edit: I'll have to respond to the other parts of your post later tonite.

Glad to see you back in RGT!

FYP. And, yes.

Sure, words like this (eg racist, sexist, Islamophobe, transphobe, etc) are often controversial and people disagree about their meaning. Because there is an implicit assumption in much of American society that prejudice is wrong, people typically want to avoid being labelled as one. I personally think we'd be better off if people just tried to be honest and forthright about their own views, prejudices, hostilities, etc. Rather than obfuscating their views to appear more palatable to others, just be upfront about them.

I've often been accused of having Trump Derangemant Syndrome over the last few years, so I think that one is already covered. Many atheists are prejudiced against religion or religious people - it's fine with me if you want to come up with a word to describe this, as it can be real problem imo. Not so sure about godphobia, as there isn't a god. I'm also hostile to adultery and tend to be prejudiced against adulterers.

If people want to call me an adulteryphobe, I'll cop to it. I won't go on about how I'm not afraid of adulterers and so I'm not really an adulteryphobe, but just try to explain why I think adultery is generally wrong and why I think worse of adulterers. If people think my reasons for thinking it wrong are irrational or bad faith, they'll probably make fun of me for it and talk about how I'm old-fashioned and prejudiced. Maybe they'll ask me why I hate adulterers and I'll have to explain that I don't. Such is life in a pluralistic society.

The reason why homophobia has become such a more common refrain than the other examples you list here is because there really has been a recent and very large change in people's attitudes towards homosexuality. For various reasons, large amounts of Americans have become convinced that there is no good reason to be hostile towards homosexuality or prejudiced against homosexuals. Also, this prejudice was common and strong enough in society that homosexuals would often go their entire lives hiding their homosexuality from all but their closest friends, and often them as well. This prejudice was also inscribed in law, which provided the impetus for a political movement to form around combatting hostility and prejudice against homosexuality.

Now obviously, many traditional religious people do have a reason for being hostile towards homosexuality - their Scripture or tradition says they should be so. Insofar as someone is committed to accepting their religious tradition or Scriptures as authoritative, then imo they should acknowledge this and be upfront that they are out of step with contemporary moral attitudes on this issue.

I know, right? You blow one dude when you're 12, and you're labeled for life.

From Dictionary.com

One of the definitions of sodomy:

Copulation with a person of the same sex.

One of the definitions of sodomite:

A person who engages in sodomy.


Looks like I at least have the blessing of dictionary.com to refer to homosexuals as sodomites.

I'll look up homophobia next.

From dictionary.com:

homophobia:

An aversion or hostility to, disdain for, or fear of gay sexual orientation or gay people.

Since I am indeed averse to gay sexual orientation, I can honestly say that I have(?) a case of homophobia.

I would like to go on record as saying that I have no disdain or fear for gay sexual orientation or gay people. And I still have no idea if I have hostility to gay sexual orientation. I do not have hostility toward gay people.

I am quite open about my belief that many people today are out of step with what God desires for them.

The latter.


Based on dictionary.com:

1. It's fine (in terms of English usage) to call homosexuals sodomites.

2. I have a case of homophobia. Will be calling my doctor first thing Monday morning.


I don't trust the modern English translations of the Bible. But that's another topic for another day (make that another year).

Lagtight, since you seem to suffer from the most acute case of selective amnesia known to man, I'll also remind you of this exchange you and I had not too long ago.

I can't remember if my amnesia is selective or not. [Have to pause until the laughter from the audience dies down]

In fact, had I remembered the above exchange that you and I had, it would have saved a ton of time in my current discussion with OP.

Which would have been no fun for me, hence I let it play out.

Huh. So I guess we're back to my original point. I think we're all clear that you were referring to homosexuals when you talk about sodomites. Uke_master asked why you use this term when "sodomite" is generally considered homophobic. You said you'd thought it over and agreed to stop using that term to refer homosexuals. Pointing out now that dictionary.com says that one of the meanings of "sodomite" is homosexual doesn't really address why you went back on your word.

That's some rock solid argument, right there. You should try that in OOT.

As I noted in an earlier post, it certainly can be used as a synonym (according to Dictionary.com). Not that it would necessarily be wise for me to use the word sodomite as a synonym for homosexual.

Although using it that way seems to be a good attention-grabber when open-air preaching on college campuses (see various Jesse Morrell and Jed Smock videos on Youtube for "shock" evangelism).

I think I said this already earlier, but as a rule I try to use words that the King James Version uses.

Having said that, I have never myself brought up the topic homosexuality while open-air preaching or when doing one-on-one evangelism. I only address the topic when someone else brings it up. I generally limited my "sin list" to violations of the Ten Commandments when evangelizing.