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Old 07-19-2012, 10:43 AM   #16
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Re: NZ Court Foils JW Child-Murder Plot

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No, I can't really agree with that because the Aztecs could be doing that from an ignorance of the nature of God while the Donner Party could have had some knowledge of God that wasn't realized. But I don't really know enough about either situation without reading everything about both to draw a conclusion. What I do have is a opinion gleaned from the bible that some people are fully regenerate while some people aren't. Both groups could have contained people that weren't fully regenerate so the comparison is misleading. If you aren't fully aware of God's concepts then you're forced to fall back on natural observations but natural observations could be misleading because they don't supply you with God's observations about human nature.
I think you are over-thinking this. You surely agree that, in principle, two acts can both be wrong but one is more wrong than the other? Or that the intent behind an action can determine whether or not the act is immoral? I mean, I KNOW you believe this because you criticize the genocide Stalin committed while you defend the genocide the Israelites committed.

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That's because as society progresses new dangers arise. Look at the rise of violence in the world. Some people think tv and video games increase violence levels in people. But this is a relatively new danger for mankind to recognize and deal with. People are still arguing over the recognition at this point in time but nobody has silenced the tv or video games.
This seems like having your cake an eating it. If one evil action decreases over time you credit God while if another increases you blame mankind/Satan.

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I'm sorry. That's the way I free think. Just consider me to not be arguing. I'm discussing. I don't even follow the philosophical rules on argumentation so how can I be arguing?
I don't care that much, it's just bad evangelising. It's not in my interest that you improve your rhetorical skills.
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Old 07-19-2012, 10:53 AM   #17
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Re: NZ Court Foils JW Child-Murder Plot

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I think you are over-thinking this. You surely agree that, in principle, two acts can both be wrong but one is more wrong than the other? Or that the intent behind an action can determine whether or not the act is immoral? I mean, I KNOW you believe this because you criticize the genocide Stalin committed while you defend the genocide the Israelites committed.

Sometimes you have to understand qualitative differences. There is a difference between being regenerate and unregenerate in this world. You have examples of regenerate and unregenerate people in both the OT, the NT and current times. But only studying the bible makes you aware of it. Imo the more regenerate you are the more rational you will be in your behavior. God is the most rational being in the universe. If God created man then that indicates an outstanding rationality. We're the ones that make mistakes by our lack of regenerative rationality. He doesn't.

This seems like having your cake an eating it. If one evil action decreases over time you credit God while if another increases you blame mankind/Satan.

Maybe because I'm aware that Jesus has to cast the devil out of human nature. Read up on his work on the demon Legion.

I don't care that much, it's just bad evangelising. It's not in my interest that you improve your rhetorical skills.
Actually it is in your interest.
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Old 07-19-2012, 05:11 PM   #18
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Re: NZ Court Foils JW Child-Murder Plot

Damn those atheists again!!! Stopping God's will!! How dare you! If God wants her dead then who are you to intervene?
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Old 07-21-2012, 01:22 AM   #19
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Re: NZ Court Foils JW Child-Murder Plot

Splendour,

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Putting your apologism for infanticide to one side for the moment, do you agree or disagree with the court's ruling?
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Old 07-21-2012, 08:52 AM   #20
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Re: NZ Court Foils JW Child-Murder Plot

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Splendour,
I don't have an opinion one way or the other on it.

I haven't thought enough about it and I don't know enough about what motivates this particular JW belief.

On the surface it appears very wrong but like I said I don't know their reasoning behind this belief.
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Old 07-21-2012, 10:03 AM   #21
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Re: NZ Court Foils JW Child-Murder Plot

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Everyone has a sanctity of life concept. They just draw the rights line at a different point.

I bet a lot of pro-choicers are anti-death penalty. Why is that?

Sanctity of life. Life is important and has deep significance.
I can tell you why most people are anti-death penalty.

Declaration of Independence --> UDHR --> Amnesty International --> most of the world abolishes death penalty

Life was a lot, lot less important before the end of ww2 (UDHR), and before Enlightenment, it was even less important.
EDIT: Right to life is mentioned in UDHR and in Declaration of Independence, Amnesty International campaigned against death penalty.

Last edited by Rok2p2; 07-21-2012 at 10:17 AM.
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Old 07-21-2012, 10:32 AM   #22
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Re: NZ Court Foils JW Child-Murder Plot

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I can tell you why most people are anti-death penalty.

Declaration of Independence --> UDHR --> Amnesty International --> most of the world abolishes death penalty

Life was a lot, lot less important before the end of ww2 (UDHR), and before Enlightenment, it was even less important.
EDIT: Right to life is mentioned in UDHR and in Declaration of Independence, Amnesty International campaigned against death penalty.
Hmmm...I think people may be less in touch with reality today in the West or in the disciplinary sciences than they were a hundred or two hundred years ago because death appears further away or more controllable. But I think that's an illusion that undermines people in all sorts of ways in their thinking about the great questions of life and meaning, etc.

Beckwith said in one of his essays that the main difference between a pro-choicer and a pro-lifer is the point at which people see the person as having a right to life.

Since a lot of biblically educated people think life starts and ends with God they see the fetus as having viable rights whereas other people think the woman's right to her own body govern things.

It all sort of depends on how you view the start and ending point of the human lifeline on how you will come down on your abortion opinions.

The death penalty is a different question though. Iirc, God gives the government the power to apply the death penalty...at least that's how I interpret the bible and I think that's because it's one thing to kill someone innocent and quite another to kill certain types of criminals. Also the tendency to criminality can be partly inheritable in certain cases. Most people don't know that. You have to have done cross studies in sociology, psychology and medicine to be aware of things like that.
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Old 07-21-2012, 10:42 AM   #23
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Re: NZ Court Foils JW Child-Murder Plot

Sry for derail.

I can understand how these parents could think like that, but life > beliefs. I hope she gets well soon.

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The death penalty is a different question though. Iirc, God gives the government the power to apply the death penalty...at least that's how I interpret the bible and I think that's because it's one thing to kill someone innocent and quite another to kill certain types of criminals.
I'm pro death penalty too. Hardly met anyone who is, especially a woman.

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Old 07-21-2012, 02:28 PM   #24
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Re: NZ Court Foils JW Child-Murder Plot

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I don't have an opinion one way or the other on it.

I haven't thought enough about it and I don't know enough about what motivates this particular JW belief.

On the surface it appears very wrong but like I said I don't know their reasoning behind this belief.
So...it appears very wrong but there could be some sort of reasoning that makes it okay?
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Old 07-21-2012, 02:37 PM   #25
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Re: NZ Court Foils JW Child-Murder Plot

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Sry for derail.

I can understand how these parents could think like that, but life > beliefs. I hope she gets well soon.

EDIT:


I'm pro death penalty too. Hardly met anyone who is, especially a woman.
I wouldn't exactly say I'm pro-death penalty but in extreme cases, maybe.
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Old 07-21-2012, 02:40 PM   #26
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Re: NZ Court Foils JW Child-Murder Plot

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So...it appears very wrong but there could be some sort of reasoning that makes it okay?
I don't know the inner details of their belief system so it makes it impossible for me to pass a judgment on them at this time.

Beliefs are suppose to improve lives though not destroy them but there could be some extreme circumstances where you might have to sacrifice your life for a belief.

Didn't Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr. have to face that problem on a regular basis in their civil rights campaigns?
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Old 07-21-2012, 02:53 PM   #27
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Re: NZ Court Foils JW Child-Murder Plot

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I don't know the inner details of their belief system so it makes it impossible for me to pass a judgment on them at this time.

Beliefs are suppose to improve lives though not destroy them but there could be some extreme circumstances where you might have to sacrifice your life for a belief.

Didn't Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr. have to face that problem on a regular basis in their civil rights campaigns?
Fine, sacrifice your own life for your belief. Don't sacrifice an innocent child because of your beliefs.
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Old 07-21-2012, 02:55 PM   #28
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Re: NZ Court Foils JW Child-Murder Plot

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Fine, sacrifice your own life for your belief. Don't sacrifice an innocent child because of your beliefs.
Good point.

Maybe God wouldn't approve of them doing that. He hates child sacrifice.

If you remember Jesus said the Sabbath was made for people. People weren't made for the Sabbath.
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Old 07-21-2012, 03:02 PM   #29
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Re: NZ Court Foils JW Child-Murder Plot

God hates child sacrifice. Sacrifices his own child.
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Old 07-21-2012, 03:05 PM   #30
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Re: NZ Court Foils JW Child-Murder Plot

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God hates child sacrifice. Sacrifices his own child.
God knew He could raise him and his Son knew it, too.

It was a demonstration of faith in God's power.

You can read up on infanticide.

Judaism and Christians and missionaries today all help to wipe it out.

Didn't the Christians replace the actual sacrifice with a ritual?

Doesn't that show God's intent?

Aren't the people closest to God going to know His intentions best? Don't they study Him the most?
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