Remski, as with all replies of this nature, i will ask: how far do you want me to go with my answer?

I could type all day and still not really cover any ground.

I have read aLOT of spiritual and pseudo-spiritual theories of life reality, and a lot are worth knowing about, some aren't, some are amazing, some aren't, etc.

The only guide we will ever have when dealing with things of this nature is the profound and deep ringing out of truth that we feel inside when we still our minds and study a "truth" that has been presented to us. We either accept it or we reject it, but not through conscious choice or analysis or reason, but through a deeper resonance with some part of us that for whatever reason is capable of recognising the spiritual truth when it comes across it; through revelation, the mystical experience, meditation, contemplation, reflection.

I believe the human condition contains an inherent spiritual element, which can vary from being completely dormant in some people, to completely activated in others, and anywhere in between. Any number of things can activate that dormant essence, stuff like zen training or structured psychadelic intake can isolate this essence and progress it, conversely stuff like watching soaps on the TV or arguing over petty disagreements with people, mundane and profane stuff like that will just serve to keep it dormant. I view spirituality as a very real and practical "thing", with a very real process and associated rules and laws, but obviously given the nature of it, an element of ambiguity, subjectivity, etc. However it is not at all "wishy-washy" to me the way it is to most atheists.

To cut the waffle and address what I perceived to be your question: the quote you gave me in your post was a nutshell summation and amalgamation of various spiritual and mystical schools of thought. This does not make it religious as such, but recognise that all religions came originally from mysticism such as this, so in a way you could argue that it does.

IMO you can't start talking about the afterlife, redemption, grace, sin and the like without acknowledging that it has all been done before, rather extensively. Sooner or later you are essentially signing up to an established belief system, whether major or minor, or you are creating your own.

What are your perspectives on all of this?



Hnzy

I didnt source it because I didnt think it was in need of a source, its common knowldege. If your interested look into neuroscience/psychology, not to be rude but I'm not going to wiki common knowledge for you.

What is your take on the Jungian archetypes and their relation to mystical and alchemical symbols that appear in all major and many minor belief systems?




Hnzy

Right...eddi didnt know, I didnt know, so im guessing it isnt common knowledge. Its easy to imagine that what your saying is the case, but as far as Ive heard, most NDE's have a similar gist to it, what with the floating and the tunnel and such, so I was interested where you had gotten that from.

well, my take (as informal and intuitive as it is) is that we are a part of reality, "I am a conscious part of a 'cybernetic system' getting to know itself". I agree with that, and really just find some value in reading what others think and postulate. ie. not enough information to make any calls either way regarding afterlife.

If there is a God, It wouldn't surprise me if it is observing us scrambling for answers on earth while thinking with a smirk - "you've got a long way to go, baby"

Im not trying to argue that im correct, I'm just saying if you want to know about it you can find out about it. The words hypnagogic and hypnopompic will also help you in this search if your interested.

thread requires bill hicks imo - It's Just A Ride

enjoy

Have you ever ran with that premise to any extent and seen where it took you?

well I guess over the last few months I have come to realize that it is not important to be the most knowledgeable, successful, 'perfect' person, but rather it is important to lead a "good life". Altruism, empathy, mutual respect... These things are what tie us together as humans, and give us the best chance for future generations to lead fulfilling lives.

It is astonishing to think that all we know on earth has sprung from stardust.

Your question kinda baffled me, but as unrelated as this post may be, this is what I think anyway. As I have gotten a tad older, my mind has become much more open to issues of spirituality.

Where does the premise take you? Be as brief or elaborate as you feel necessary.

Have a good one.

I agree with you, that ultimately, it is better for all of us if we love ourselves and eachother and we put ourselves out to help our fellow man, even at our own expense. we share with one another, we view other ppl as our kin to the extent that we are all in this mess called life together and on the same lump of cosmic rock, we promote good strong positive ideals, we try to raise our kids with as much positive influence in their lives as possible, we forgive people their sins and hope that others will give us a chance to do the same when we f**k things up etc.

All of that stuff is more important than what, if any, spiritual beliefs a person has. The treee shall be judged by its fruit and all that.

That said, if spiritual experience and beliefs are important to you then you should pursue it.

I have had astonishing spiritual experiences, some in the cold light of day right before my very eyes, that I count as the most profound and special things I have been privy to.

My advice would be to seek out the people through history who were capable of teaching man higher truths, and just assimilate their teachings into your being. Christ and Buddha are two of my favourite, but there have been so many more who have influenced me or taught me that I have lost count. I love these teachings because as I read them I found myself experiencing a profound internal reaction, as if some deep part of me recognised what I was reading, and inspired me. I didn't just choose lightly to subscribe to some pre-existing cult. Spirituality is always a deeply personal thing, and it should be with you too.

You will find that the essence of your being changes over time, and you will realise slowly but surely that a very real process is occuring, inside you, invisible and immeasurable by instruments though it may be. It will be the most valuable thing in your life, and even though you go through times where you prioritise other stuff, because you are a human being with desires and fears, you will always come back to it, either by choice or because it has dragged you kicking and screaming, and you will be glad you did.

I can't really say a whole lot more, you must experience your own personal gnosis in order to know for yourself about the things I write, until then, they are just words on a page.

Christ and Buddha are great starting points, the buddha saw past this reality into a higher nirvana, and was able to penetrate to the deepest levels of truth concerning existence as a human experience. A lot of buddhist stuff is a complete headf**k but some of it is easier to run with, it also requires meditation and contemplation on your part in order to get anywhere with it. FWIW, I believe I experienced nirvana one evening I had taken myself for a walk in the countryside and ended up in the middle of a field with a wild barn owl flying around me so close I could reach out and touch it, completely oblivious or at least unaffected by my presence. I blogged it here

Christ also had a profound insight into the human condition that a lot of people don't give him credit for, preferring instead to focus all their energies on the argument of whether he was or was not a living god. Whatever he was, he spoke a lot of heavyweight spiritual truth, some of it much easier to get to grips with than others, but all accessible to anyone who reads and sincerely wishes to connect with what is being taught. Because "to he who asks, so shall it be given".

Also, it sounds way hilarious, but pop on a DVD of The Empire Strikes Back and just open your mind to the divinely inspired wisdom of master yoda. The guy was a genius. There's a strong spiritual theme running through all 3 of the original star wars movies, and there's even one or two places where blatant esoteric symbolism made it into the final cut. Sounds like a joke right? Not so. The jedi force is a brilliant amalgamation of different mystical beliefs and a lot of what yoda comes out with is just plain, pure, beautful and undeniable truth that relates directly to man on the archetypal spiritual path, as symbolised in the movies by Luke.

"Strong is that place with the dark side of the force. Go in you must."

"What's in there?"

"Only what you take with you..."

That's some deep s**t right there.

I've got into some quite fringe stuff in my time as well, because I believe there are granules or even big lumps of truth to be found in some very strange places. My next book will be this the field of shamanism and spiritual experiences being induced by psychadelics is a very interesting one, and apparently this guy is pretty hardcore in his revelations. I look forward to seeing what he comes up with.

I've rambled on for way too long. There's a bunch of stuff out there to pursue, and all of it should be run past your internal "truth-processor", questioned and grappled with, of course. Taking a long walk in the countryside just mulling things over in your head is a good way to let the deeper parts of your being accept what is real and reject what is fantasy.

Ultimately, a spiritual person grows to think and feel with a different part of their mind, a part that I believe is spiritual in nature and is there for anyone to connect with, but that remains dormant in those who never do.

You'll know when you find it :-)

a friend told me about a book called 23 minutes in hell by a guy named bill wiese. i have not read it and do not intend to. after a quick google search it appears he is the pastor of his own ministry lol.

Thanks Hainesy, I can sense you are a bright light of being. Keep bringing positive energy into this community pls, and ty for your frank and sincere exchanges. on we travel~

Really interesting interview on this week's Skeptiko podcast (don't let the name fool you, the host is a believer). It's an interview with Dr. G.M. Woerlee, an anesthesiologist whose written a critique of Dr. Jeffrey Long's book on NDEs.

I believe the full text is here:

http://www.skeptiko.com/near-death-e...rlee/#more-642

Or you can find it on itunes or off that website. He's had other interviewees both pro and con NDE on in the past if you want to search the archives.

That was a good read, thanks.

Is this the guy who thinks dogs are telepathic to humans?

Who?

The "skeptic"

That would surprise me given what he says in this interview. You have a link?

Has this thread become a near death experience?

more a resurrection, that sinks to the bottom of the forum then pops back up to the top again...

spooky

So as not to be accused of not being balanced, here is the following week's episode, with an interview with Dr. Long.

http://www.skeptiko.com/jeffrey_long...the_afterlife/

http://m.discovermagazine.com/2005/j...tart:int=1&-C=

tl;dr: fighter pilots being tested in centrifuges blacked out and had OBE or NDE.

Question for those who believe NDE are hallucinations:

If NDE are only hallucinations why don't Muslims see Muhammad in their NDE?
Many Muslims who had NDE saw Jesus but they didn't see their prophet. If everyone sees what he expects to see and the experiences aren't real why Muslims don't see their prophet? Muslims are very religious and their prophet is very important for them.

If you think Muslims saw Muhammad in their NDE, link or it isn't true.

Cite that all Muslims who have NDE see Jesus or it didnt happen and isnt true.

what if jesus has a nde and sees a muslim?