my underlines. Id need evidence for this assumption.

Put simply: is this "long dark tunnel" a thing I could reach out and touch, take you to visit, take a photograph of etc.?

Therefore it is not related in any way to physicality, being that it is a fabrication created by our consciousness when stimulated by the pressure of near-death, drug-trips etc. and not a real tunnel.

FWIW I consider experiences of this nature to be very close cousins to dreams.




H

One of the theories Ive heard was blood supply to the eye (and therefore sensory neurons) shutting down in the periphery faster than the center, which then causes 'light' perception as a tunnel. Dont know about the evidence there though.

Something like that. The point was that it was a real physical limiting of the perception creating the impression of a tunnel with light at the end, rather than a dream-like imagining of a tunnel. Kind of like putting blinders on a horse.

I have found the "scientific" explanations to be very ad hoc personally. I don't find them very convincing. If NDE's are real then they are going to be consistent, but at the same token if they are just a physical response to something happening when you die they will also.

It just seems that too many times when the brain and the non-physical are discussed materialist just point to something that is happening and calling that the cause, even though they cannot show that it in fact the cause or that it is an effect itself from the non-physical cause.

With that said, I am not on the NDE or OBE bandwagon. I am very excited for the study that has been talked about before where objects are place high in the room to test the those that have ODE. That study should be extremely interesting and depending on the outcome could really change a lot of peoples worldview.

If it turns out that a significant percentage of people that experience OBE can in fact describe these objects it will be the strongest evidence for the spiritual realm ever produced. The manner in which people react to said evidence will also be extremely interesting.

As someone who has lived through an NDE and witnessed the long dark tunnel first-hand, I can categorically rule this out as any sort of explanation.


H

the result of that studie wont change much regardless of outcome.
people who want to believe in an afterlife wont just all of a sudden stop believing because of science just as people still believe in any given god(s).

besides even if OBE can be proven it shouldn't make any practical difference in how one should live his life. Chemical reactions or actual OBE is same same to me.
further if there exists such as a thing as true out of body experience it is extremely unlikely to have anything to do with any specific manmade religion.

After it has been independantly confirmed and it has been shown that extreme measures to protect the integrity of the research had been taken. Yes, then it would have profound implications. I think Id be unable to maintain my beliefs (Im a philosophical materialist) in the face of such evidence.
The reverse however is not as likely imo. I dont think the beliefs of those people that see these experiences as evidence of non-physical things will suffer from the lack of evidence from this study (it should though).

Why?

Do people that have NDEs ever report experiences related to another religion? What about reports of going to hell rather than heaven?

I don't think anyone is saying that the scientists have figured it out. It is undergoing study and hypotheses are forming. Ryan didn't site the author of that article, but its written by Dr. Steven Novella, Yale neurologist and host of the Skeptics Guide to the Universe. I've heard other neurologists say similar things.

The point is, this is an emerging area of study and before we are willing to go to the extent of attributing supernatural causes to this phenomena, we have a duty to examine it scientifically. I agree with you that this study is important, I really hope that extreme measures are taken to protect the integrity of the study. So many studies like those on remote viewing have been screwed because appropriate precautions weren't taken.

The direction the research is going, however, is suggesting that there are naturalistic causes for what's going on.

Because I experienced an entire environment, which I moved through and turned my head in different directions to observe; of which the infamous long dark tunnel was only a part. It was an entire landscape, which I entered curiously enough by floating up and out of a hole in the ground very much like a rabbit-hole.

I was attacked by a dog, I witnessed two absolutely classic grim reaper characters, identical to the horseback-wraiths in LOTR, I then proceeded to the area where the tunnel was, when I came upon a junction and was able to look both ways down the tunnel, and see absolute nothingness in both directions. It wasn't just black due to a lack of light, but the complete void, where precisely no existence is allowed to occur.

Words will never describe the impact that place or that tunnel had on me, you would have to experience it yourself to understand, but nothing in this life could come close to what it was. With regards to this I would offer Plato's ideas about pure form and the reflection of pure form; the utter despair experienced in this place and by looking into this tunnel was so pure and so intense and so overwhelming that all despair experienced in this reality is a reflection by comparison. It was a place charged by feeling, if not emotion, a pure sense of despair simply not perceivable in everyday life. It's like instead of being afflicted by despair, like I might do if I were to experience something harrowing in my life, in this place I became one with it.

It wasn't a whole lot of fun to be fair, but I am certain it wasn't caused by the peripheral light-receptors in my eyes shutting down at a slower rate than the ones in the middle.

I guess I have quite a deep-seated problem with extremely lame explanations like this being offered by people who have never experienced the NDE, it does make them look a tad ridiculous. This is the scientists proposing it, not you guys bringing it up here on a forum.




H

I 100% accept that you had an experience. I don't think anyone ITT has questioned that these experiences happen. No one questions that many people, such as yourself, reports these experiences to be quite vivid and that they have an impact on them.

The question is the source. I have no problem believing that a person will have a mix of physical things going on along with dream-like scenarios. I myself, not being a scientist or particularly a neurologist is qualified to make an opinion. I must rely on the opinion of others. People like you, people like the scientists studying this issue from both sides. Then I can make an opinion.

From what I understand, scientists are gaining knowledge here. we've got to sit back and let them do their job BEFORE attributing supernatural causes. We don't just default to supernatural causes and let science catch up. This is a live area of study. Let's see what they come up with.

I agree that we should be studying this with the tools that we have available to us, but I am just not convinced that our tools are sufficient to come to any sort of solid conclusion. If we cannot study anything other than the physical, how can we say that the first link in the causal chain is not non-physical?

I also hope that the necessary steps are taken to ensure the study is as tight as possible. I believe that the study is done by atheists trying to show that ODE's are not real, so I am sure that they will take every precaution necessary. If this was a theist group I honestly would not be as excited. Not because I don't think that they would be cautious, but that if the evidence is positive then it will mean a lot more coming from skeptics.

My question is that will the tools available how could any other conclusion be reached?

If I may be so bold: there are entire libraries of mystical and spiritual literature dealing with experiences like mine and the implications thereof. Highly capable minds throughout history have engaged with and studied experiences just like this one, and a plethora of related thought besides. By studying this literature I can learn and put my own experience into context in relation to a much larger framework, and gain a much broader understanding. The mystical and spiritual canon is quite comprehensive.

Scientists on the other hand, when it comes to things of this nature, are peanuts. Due to their personal inclinations they will rarely if ever bother to educate themselves on the accepted wisdom of, for example, NDEs in relation to entire tomes of mystical and spiritual literature that quite simply is far more qualified to deal with the matters at hand than they are.

If I want to discover the velocity of a ball-bearing leaving a slingshot across a lake on a windy day, I will consult a scientist.

If on the other hand I am seeking counsel with regards to the nature of mystical experiences, I will seek Buddha, Christ, Paracelsus, Manly P Hall, Jung, The Greek Myths, Shamanism, The Bhagavad Gita, The Gnostic Gospels etc.



H

I don't think that you are looking at this properly. You will change your stance, but how many atheists won't? I bet there will be a ton of people that will find a reason to not accept the studies conclusions.

There will be a lot of theists that will continue to say that ODE's are evidence even if the study comes up that no one was able to see the objects. But there will also be a lot of theists like me that don't necessarily believe that NDE's and ODE's are evidence of the spiritual world and I would easily accept that these phenomena are just physical reactions.

The fact is the conclusions of this study cannot prove a spiritual non-physical reality do not exist, but they can show that one does exist. So it would naturally have more of an impact on people that hold your worldview then people that hold my worldview.

Where did you get any of this from?

Well, you are right to an extent. One study does not a theory make. What one positive study will do will open up the gates to further research. The study needs to be replicated, and the results compared. So while I would not jump whole hog onto the results of one study, my interest would certainly be picked and I'd be watching for what came next.


I listen to a lot of skeptical podcasts. Several have interviewed neurologists on this topic. One podcast (Skeptico - which is really a believer's podcast) interviewed a leading researcher on both sides.

hardly so, the whole point of being an atheist is that we dont believe w/o proof.
i for one have no problem believing anything if there is proof of it.
why would i "find a reason" ? if you dont particularly care one way or the other then that means you run very low risk of confirmation bias OTHO theist will def do what they can to find a reason in case of a negative scenario because they have already decided on a desirable outcome.
In fact i believe alot of things where i have no chance understand the proof and may even have problem grasping the concept.

First, this does not have anything to do directly with theism, so Id prefer to keep it out of it, so as to avoid the same old pitfalls. Lets just say that confirmed non-physical phenomena do not necessitate theism, let alone a specific form.

The difference I refer to is one, ill admit, of personal experience. Those people I know that are believers in non-physical phenomena are melting pots of unreasonable beliefs, from astrology via ghosts to armageddon and the talking brush. I have little faith something like this will change their mind.
The people I know that do not believe in these things, lets call them sceptics, I find to be more receptive to such evidence.

Wether atheists would be pursuaded to review their position on theism, im doubtfull. I think it would require more for me to change my views in that regard, but then perhaps not.

I don't get the point of the study with the stuff written on top of the shelves. Are people really thinking that the soul or whatever floats upward, and that it can still see? Where exactly is it going? I thought theists gave up on the whole heaven is up thing when we figured out that we're just on a rocky sphere out in the middle of nowhere.

Thank you for sharing your story.
Ill ask a few questions out of interest.
What was the cause of this experience?
Were you constantly aware during this of your body proper?
Is the memory of it dreamlike or of previous experience?
How acurate is your memory of the events?
Can you give us a timetable of events in order?
Did you witness anything that you had no knowledge of prior to the experience?
Things that defy explanation?

That's fair, I agree with you.

I do agree to some extent. But I feel that you are forgetting that there are plenty of people like myself that do believe there is a non-physical realm but are not caught up in "ghostbuster" type stuff. That have a more grounded worldview and are not prone to beliefs because they are exciting, which is what I feel persuades many of these people in this direction in the first place.

There is a lot just tied up in the structure of the worldview as well. For someone that holds that non-physical world does not exist (WV-A) they do so on the basis of lack of empirical evidence. To affirm that the non-physical world does exist (WV-B) is usually done on the basis that empirical evidence does exist.

WV-A only needs one solid piece of evidence to contradict the worldview. While something coming up as not evidence (such as this study showing no one could describe the objects implying that they were really not 'out of body') does not destroy WV-B, as WV-B still has all of the positive evidence (so they believe) to fall back on.

Furthermore I feel you are still forgetting about the many WV-A'ers that hold this position without solid reasons. In other words you have extremists on both sides of the camp.

The descriptions often describe floating above and over their bodies, while still percieving things around them.
It has little to do with the soul per se.

Well, the claim isn't about the direction of heaven or anything like that. But that people when they are experiencing and OBE are actually floating above their body and that they are actually looking at themselves on the table as well as the room around them.