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Marcionism -- Anti-Semitic or Not? Marcionism -- Anti-Semitic or Not?

05-08-2014 , 03:39 AM
A major movement in the early stages of Christianity was Marcionism, named after its founder Marcion of Sinope.

His philosophy was basically that the God of the Old Testament had absolutely no relation to Jesus Christ because the OT God was a "murdering, jealous and vengeful" God while Jesus was a "turn the other cheek" advocate. According to him, Jesus came from a Super God that was higher than the OT God.

Marcion's bible was composed of:

The Gospel of Luke minus everything that connected Jesus with the God of the OT, including the Nativity.

Ten epistles of Paul.

That's it! Zero Old Testament and the other Gospels he fired.

The Church labeled him a heretic. Was Marcion also an anti-Semite?
Marcionism -- Anti-Semitic or Not? Quote
05-08-2014 , 06:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by themistocles khan
Was Marcion also an anti-Semite?
Based on what you posted?
Marcionism -- Anti-Semitic or Not? Quote
05-08-2014 , 07:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis Cyphre
Based on what you posted?
No. Based on what anyone here who might have had studied it deeply knows. I just became aware of Marcionism the past few weeks. Apparently, he was seminal in the initiative by the early church to get agreement on what would make it into the Holy Bible.
Marcionism -- Anti-Semitic or Not? Quote
05-08-2014 , 10:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by themistocles khan
No. Based on what anyone here who might have had studied it deeply knows.
I've not studied it deeply, but when this thread comes up on page 2 of a google search, it's reasonably likely that the statement is not broadly supported.
Marcionism -- Anti-Semitic or Not? Quote
05-08-2014 , 11:18 AM
Anti-Judaic, certainly, but probably not anti-Semitic in the way we usually mean it.
Marcionism -- Anti-Semitic or Not? Quote
05-11-2014 , 09:29 AM
Technically, an argument can be made that Marcion was not antisemitic; however, Marcion laid the foundations of antisemitism and supersessionism in Christianity. Aspects of Marcionism played a role in "Positive Christianity" ( which arguably isn't "Christianity" at all, if you were to ask some theologians/clergy/scholars from the Reformed tradition ). The more important question is: Why is Marcionism considered heretical by many devout followers of Yeshua, the Mashiach?
Marcionism -- Anti-Semitic or Not? Quote
05-11-2014 , 09:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mangler241
The more important question is: Why is Marcionism considered heretical by many devout followers of Yeshua, the Mashiach?
Because disagreement with establishment doctrine is the definition of heretical.

It doesn't really count as a question. Even less so as an important one.
Marcionism -- Anti-Semitic or Not? Quote
05-13-2014 , 06:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTheMick2
Because disagreement with establishment doctrine is the definition of heretical.

It doesn't really count as a question. Even less so as an important one.
Maybe you don't understand Marcionism and how fundamental the problem is. Do you see why?
Marcionism -- Anti-Semitic or Not? Quote
05-13-2014 , 02:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mangler241
Maybe you don't understand Marcionism and how fundamental the problem is. Do you see why?
It is heretical by definition. No problem there to be solved.

I guess we could round up all the Maronianists and burn them at the stake or something.
Marcionism -- Anti-Semitic or Not? Quote
05-13-2014 , 03:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTheMick2
It is heretical by definition. No problem there to be solved.

I guess we could round up all the Maronianists and burn them at the stake or something.
Damn, I googled it and I couldn't find even one organization based on Marcion. Their oath to celibacy (Marcion was a hypocrite on this from what I've learned) was a bad idea.

"Orthodox" means "straight thinking". Anything not orthodox is heretical. "Orthodox" according to whom? Answer: Irenaeus.

Turns out the Pauline Epistles didn't become known until 200 BCE, during Irenaeus time, decades after Marcion was already publishing them. Any chance he wrote them?
Marcionism -- Anti-Semitic or Not? Quote
05-15-2014 , 03:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by themistocles khan
His philosophy was basically that the God of the Old Testament had absolutely no relation to Jesus Christ because the OT God was a "murdering, jealous and vengeful" God while Jesus was a "turn the other cheek" advocate.
This kind of tracks with my view. As in, taken as literary characters there are substantial differences between the deities of the old and new testament. And that while far from perfect, the morality espoused and actions performed by the NT deity are far closer to my moral views than that of the OT deity.

At this level there is nothing anti-semitic. And while I think it is fairly silly, there is nothing anti-semitic about excising the OT from your canon. Heck, for a lot of practicing christians, there is a marked asymmetry in emphasis for the NT over the OT.

But this guy in particular? Sure he may have been a huge anti-semite. I have no idea.
Marcionism -- Anti-Semitic or Not? Quote
09-11-2014 , 08:24 AM
Some speculations abound that Marcion may have been Luke. If true, this is very funny because the Orthodoxy criticized him for doctoring Luke. LOL

Also some speculations that he was Mark and that there was a chance he got hold of all of the Pauline epistles too, before everyone else, and then edited them his way.

Marcion could be the most influential person in the history of Christianity.
Marcionism -- Anti-Semitic or Not? Quote
09-11-2014 , 10:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by themistocles khan
Some speculations abound that Marcion may have been Luke. If true, this is very funny because the Orthodoxy criticized him for doctoring Luke. LOL

Also some speculations that he was Mark and that there was a chance he got hold of all of the Pauline epistles too, before everyone else, and then edited them his way.

Marcion could be the most influential person in the history of Christianity.
Well, if some people speculate it, then we might as well start making declarations (with the only hedging provided by "could be")!
Marcionism -- Anti-Semitic or Not? Quote
09-11-2014 , 10:38 AM
If he got hold of the Pauline epistles he seems to have done a poor job making them sound marcionist
Marcionism -- Anti-Semitic or Not? Quote
09-11-2014 , 11:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by well named
If he got hold of the Pauline epistles he seems to have done a poor job making them sound marcionist
Tertullian and Irenaeus messed it up decades later.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZK9a...MLIipCJxBgGYDA

Last edited by themistocles khan; 09-11-2014 at 11:40 AM.
Marcionism -- Anti-Semitic or Not? Quote
09-20-2014 , 10:04 AM
So by the logic of OP, are Hindus anti-Semites?
Marcionism -- Anti-Semitic or Not? Quote
09-24-2014 , 05:54 PM
Anti-Semitism is racial animosity toward the Jews. "Semite" is not a religion. Marcion hated the Jews' god, not their race. I doubt the concept even existed at the time.
Marcionism -- Anti-Semitic or Not? Quote

      
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