Jan F. Brouwer containment thread - Page 5 - Religion, God, and Theology

Howard Beale · 07-25-2012, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by augie_

you can't author a thought. nobody can control their thoughts. thoughts come to us out of nowhere, as if "springing from the void."

if we could author our thoughts, it would mean we think them before we think them.

OK, I don't get this. If I'm discussing or writing on a topic my thoughts 'spring from the void?' It feels like I'm directing my mind onto the topic and selecting phraseology most suitable to convey my thoughts on the matter.

And I certainly feel that I can direct my thoughts when I day dream.

asdfasdf32 · 07-25-2012, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howard Beale

OK, I don't get this. If I'm discussing or writing on a topic my thoughts 'spring from the void?' It feels like I'm directing my mind onto the topic and selecting phraseology most suitable to convey my thoughts on the matter.

And I certainly feel that I can direct my thoughts when I day dream.

He's commenting on free will.

Howard Beale · 07-25-2012, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asdfasdf32

He's commenting on free will.

If that's it I'm wondering if there's any particular school of thought the way he put it comes from. Seems rather ethereal, misty and poetic and it went right over my head.

asdfasdf32 · 07-25-2012, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howard Beale

If that's it I'm wondering if there's any particular school of thought the way he put it comes from. Seems rather ethereal, misty and poetic and it went right over my head.

I'm almost certain his chosen prose didn't denote any particular school of thought.

**augie_** · 07-25-2012, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howard Beale

If that's it I'm wondering if there's any particular school of thought the way he put it comes from. Seems rather ethereal, misty and poetic and it went right over my head.

ethereal, misty, poetic, indeed...trippy, freeing, frightening, enlightening, unbelievable. the fact that we don't control our thoughts is a shocking idea when first encountered. I didn't believe it the first time i encountered this subject. but the truth is inescapable. you get used to it, and i have found the idea liberating and rather exciting and an idea that has improved me.

the world is a much more amusing place when you think of everyone, and yourself, as brains in jars, floating about the world, trying to figure out the best way to exist and keep that existence from ending.

here is the videos i got "emerging from the void" from. this video certainly changed my life for the better. i have looked for rebuttals to this but there seems to be no rebuttal. i'd love to hear one.

as the video states, if this idea is true, it destroys the idea of "sin" and undermines our justice system and the primal impulse for retribution. so it's no wonder that it's not a popular idea.

Sam Harris on The Illusion of Free Will -1/3

Sam Harris on The Illusion of Free Will - 2/3

Sam Harris on The Illusion of Free Will - 3/3

Howard Beale · 07-25-2012, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asdfasdf32

I'm almost certain his chosen prose didn't denote any particular school of thought.

Then I will take it as the musings of the guru that I sought out in his mountaintop cave and wish that I'd had it back in my college days to share w/ the room full of stoners I used to sit with.

ETA: I watched the Dennet vids. I'd expect the same sort of thing from a teacher at an auto repair trade school rather than some deep insight into whether or not we have free will. 'How long did it take you to see the difference in these pictures?' doesn't appear to address that question in the least.

ETA 2: I don't care for Sam Harris. Yes, I read 'The End of Faith' and that's why I don't like Sam Harris. Not the argument, it's the presentation. OK, I'll try one simply as an appreciation of the effort it took to embed them. If he's not strident to the max I'll try the others.

**augie_** · 07-25-2012, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howard Beale

ETA: I watched the Dennet vids. I'd expect the same sort of thing from a teacher at an auto repair trade school rather than some deep insight into whether or not we have free will. 'How long did it take you to see the difference in these pictures?' doesn't appear to address that question in the least.

those videos were in response to a splendour post, she said, "what are we, just video recorders?" i tried to show her that we would be lucky to be like video recorders, we are much worse at recording memories.

**augie_** · 07-25-2012, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howard Beale

ETA 2: I don't care for Sam Harris. Yes, I read 'The End of Faith' and that's why I don't like Sam Harris. Not the argument, it's the presentation. OK, I'll try one simply as an appreciation of the effort it took to embed them. If he's not strident to the max I'll try the others.

certainly possible he is a hack in theology, history, and politics, but brain science is one area of knowledge where he can claim to be an authority over most people.

Howard Beale · 07-25-2012, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by augie_

as the video states, if this idea is true, it destroys the idea of "sin" and undermines our justice system and the primal impulse for retribution. so it's no wonder that it's not a popular idea.

I give you Dennet's friend Dawkins, a bit after the 18:30 mark.

http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_daw..._universe.html

Howard Beale · 07-26-2012, 12:23 AM

Bleh, I really don't care for scattershot presentations. I think that if you've got a point to make you should be able to do it w/i a much shorter period of time. At any rate, Harris is trying to rid us of free will and jam moral responsibility onto personality instead?

Now I'd like you to embed a counter to Harris from some equally credentialed authority.

**augie_** · 07-26-2012, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howard Beale

Now I'd like you to embed a counter to Harris from some equally credentialed authority.

i can't find one

Howard Beale · 07-26-2012, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by augie_

i can't find one

(cue Jedi mind trick hand wave)

You will find one........You will find one.

I'll tell you why I asked: A friend of mine from the old Mayfair Club watched me argue a point w/ somebody that couldn't hold up his end. He chimed in: 'Argue his side for him.' So I did and now I ask you.

neeeel · 07-26-2012, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howard Beale

OK, I don't get this. If I'm discussing or writing on a topic my thoughts 'spring from the void?' It feels like I'm directing my mind onto the topic and selecting phraseology most suitable to convey my thoughts on the matter.

And I certainly feel that I can direct my thoughts when I day dream.

Yes, it appears to be this way. But the directing and selecting are also thoughts, and they also "spring from the void". Observe and see.

Can you predict your next thought?

Howard Beale · 07-26-2012, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neeeel

Yes, it appears to be this way. But the directing and selecting are also thoughts, and they also "spring from the void". Observe and see.

Can you predict your next thought?

Before I even read this reply I knew that my first thought would not be 'egg salad.' As I am typing I feel a whirl of not fully formed thoughts appropriate to reply in my mind and as I type I am selecting from the best of the options.

But maybe you are right. It is unpleasant to consider we are more beast than not.

nek777 · 07-26-2012, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howard Beale

But maybe you are right. It is unpleasant to consider we are more beast than not.

Funny, I was thinking the reverse... Seems to show we are not beasts.

Of course maybe animals are examining their own Being all day. My dog does lay around a lot.