Jan F. Brouwer containment thread

[Splendour]

Originally Posted by augie_

that's nice. let's examine where that thought came from.

your brain, of course.

where was this thought before it was in your brain?

it was nowhere.

and then, like magic, it was in your brain.

did you have the free will to not have that thought? thoughts just happen. you had no choice.

you did have the choice whether you would communicate that thought, or not. the choice whether to communicate a certain thought is itself a thought. where did that thought come from?

nowhere. thoughts simply emerge.

No, I think my thinking ability originates from God.

The bible says in him we live and move and have our being.

So if I didn't have sin trying to disrupt me like a computer virus all the time I could come pretty close to being Christlike.

How do you learn to kick out or at least control the virus: you follow Jesus Christ and read the bible...that's how...

[nek777]

Originally Posted by Splendour

I don't think there is a Christian notion of "self" at least not identical to the way psychology could use it. We use the word soul and believe we are tripartite: body, soul and spirit.

I think almost all believers believe from the outset that they have souls.

You have to go through some deconstructive thinking to think you don't have a soul as a starting point.

It's natural for people to think they have selfs or souls.

You don't think any Christian thinkers ever pondered the question of "Who am I?"

I think you need to do some studying up on the subject - you can stick to just the christian views of "self" if you want. Doing some deconstructing of your image of "self" will probably led you to some deeper insight.

I agree, its natural for people to think they have a self - the bigger question is whether that notion "I" is correct.

Can you point to a car? And when you say, "Yes, that is a car." Are you pointing to a car or to merely a set of aggregates, a bunch of parts? Where does the car really exist?

A "self" exists, it just doesn't exist how people really think it exists.

[Jan F. Brouwer]

I am only conscious of having a thumb when the thumb is ill, when it is bruised, broken or infested. When the thumb is healthy, functioning like a thumb is meant to function, I do not notice it being there.

The same with the self. I am only self-conscious when my self is ill and in pain. Remove the bruises and festering from the self and it switches right away from being noticed to noticing. Noticing is the proper, -the healthy-, function of the self. Being noticed is its pathology.

The purpose of spirituality is to make the self healthy again.

[asdfasdf32]

Originally Posted by nek777

OK - that is quite a detour - a bit off topic no?

Get used to that. Splendour often likes to play "Seven Degrees of Whatever Crap I Read Lately".

[iosys]

You forgot the nose mate

I can't count the number of times, I've had a cold where my nose is plugged and I would think of how much I don't appreciate breathing with it when healthy.

[augie_]

Originally Posted by Splendour

No, I think my thinking ability originates from God.

The bible says in him we live and move and have our being.

hmm. so our thoughts originate from god? i find that even more disturbing than our thoughts coming from nowhere.

hopefully you can help me clarify. a "fill in the blanks" will help do the job, i think.

"Splendour's thoughts come from God."

"Augie's thoughts come from ____________"

"A pedophile's thoughts come from ____________"

"A serial killer's thoughts come from ___________"

i beg you to help me fill in those blanks.

[Splendour]

Originally Posted by nek777

You don't think any Christian thinkers ever pondered the question of "Who am I?"

I think you need to do some studying up on the subject - you can stick to just the christian views of "self" if you want. Doing some deconstructing of your image of "self" will probably led you to some deeper insight.

I agree, its natural for people to think they have a self - the bigger question is whether that notion "I" is correct.

Can you point to a car? And when you say, "Yes, that is a car." Are you pointing to a car or to merely a set of aggregates, a bunch of parts? Where does the car really exist?

A "self" exists, it just doesn't exist how people really think it exists.

Didn't you know Jesus Christ was a carpenter?

Who do you think is responsible for deconstructing and reconstructing Christians if not Jesus Christ?

[Splendour]

Originally Posted by augie_

hmm. so our thoughts originate from god? i find that even more disturbing than our thoughts coming from nowhere.

hopefully you can help me clarify. a "fill in the blanks" will help do the job, i think.

"Splendour's thoughts come from God."

"Augie's thoughts come from ____________"

"A pedophile's thoughts come from ____________"

"A serial killer's thoughts come from ___________"

i beg you to help me fill in those blanks.

Disturbing? I find it comforting. It means I can learn to maneuver spiritual obstacles.

Didn't Jesus Christ have a dual nature?

Try looking into that and answer your own questions. You might learn something.

[augie_]

Originally Posted by Splendour

Disturbing? I find it comforting.

if your thoughts come from god, everyone's thoughts come from god. i assume you are a human being like the rest of us.

you find it comforting that a pedophile and a serial killer's thoughts come from god?

[Splendour]

Originally Posted by augie_

if your thoughts come from god, everyone's thoughts come from god. i assume you are a human being like the rest of us.

you find it comforting that a pedophile and a serial killer's thoughts come from god?

Are a pedophile or a serial killer born again?

Jeffrey Dahmer said if he'd been born again he didn't think he'd of committed his crimes. He said it in a tv interview.

The question is when is one born again?

[augie_]

Originally Posted by Splendour

Are a pedophile or a serial killer born again?

Jeffrey Dahmer said if he'd been born again he didn't think he'd of committed his crimes. He said it in a tv interview.

The question is when is one born again?

thank you for helping me. hopefully you will continue to help me clarify.

so, once someone becomes born again, there is a change in the brain that changes the origin of your thoughts?

once you are born again, your thoughts originate from god, as if sort of implanted there?

doesn't this still conflict with free will just like the idea that our thoughts originate from nowhere?

whether thoughts originate from nowhere, or originate from god, doesn't that mean we're equally irresponsible for the contents of those thoughts?

if our thoughts originate from god, how can we say we author them?

[Splendour]

Originally Posted by augie_

thank you for helping me. hopefully you will continue to help me clarify.

so, once someone becomes born again, there is a change in the brain that changes the origin of your thoughts?

once you are born again, your thoughts originate from god, as if sort of implanted there?

doesn't this still conflict with free will just like the idea that our thoughts originate from nowhere?

whether thoughts originate from nowhere, or originate from god, doesn't that mean we're equally irresponsible for the contents of our thoughts?

if our thoughts originate from god, how can we say we author them?

This is my opinion so understand that it might not be perfect.

Jesus Christ had a dual nature and he sent us the Comforter which is the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit indwells all believers. This indwelling helps us understand God's Word.

But we're not immediately proficient overnight.

We need guidance from both the Holy Spirit and the scriptures.

Every human has a thinking capacity but we still make errors. But the text helps reveal errors in our thinking across time when you study it so we can accept God's correction.

Think of it as a combined function.

We start out made in God's image and reconnect via Jesus Christ sending us the Holy Spirit. But we still have to grow up spiritually. The Word of God is compared to a seed and seeds grow over time and they have to be maintained and nurtured.

[augie_]

Originally Posted by Splendour

This is my opinion so understand that it might not be perfect.

Jesus Christ had a dual nature and he sent us the Comforter which is the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit indwells all believers. This indwelling helps us understand God's Word.

But we're not immediately proficient overnight.

We need guidance from both the Holy Spirit and the scriptures.

Every human has a thinking capacity but we still make errors. But the text helps reveal errors in our thinking across time when you study it so we can accept God's correction.

Think of it as a combined function.

We start out made in God's image and reconnect via Jesus Christ sending us the Holy Spirit. But we still have to grow up spiritually. The Word of God is compared to a seed and seeds grow over time and they have to be maintained and nurtured.

thanks for sharing your opinion but unfortunately you didn't answer my question nor come close to it.

[nek777]

Originally Posted by Splendour

Didn't you know Jesus Christ was a carpenter?

Who do you think is responsible for deconstructing and reconstructing Christians if not Jesus Christ?

What does this mean? What does Jesus being a carpenter have to do with the topic? You are rather ambiguous - can you be more concrete?

[RoundGuy]

Originally Posted by Jan F. Brouwer

The purpose of spirituality is to make the self healthy again.

What? I call bull-****.