In regards to your WW2 comments the Nazi-Germany actually had mostly friendly relations with Arab countries, which makes sense as they were waging war against the two main colonial powers in the Middle-East and North-Africa (England and France) and they also strongly opposed the Jews. They also put much effort into propaganda, and Nazism and Fascism would actually come to influence the Pan-Arabic movements that formed in those times.

This isn't to say Nazism didn't have its critics in the Arab world (and probably also amongst other ethnicities in these regions, but I don't know much about that), but if there is an overall trend it is certainly one of fairly good relations.

Nazism eliminated 50% of the Jewish population in Europe, but was only able to eliminate 1% of the Jewish population in Muslim majority countries in North Africa.

I am arguing the Muslim populations made much more of an effort (due to their Muslim beliefs) to prevent the holocaust then those of the populations of Europe. Would you concede this?

As for your claims of Nazi/ Arab friendly relations. Part of how the Muslim leaders in Morocco were able to protect the Jewish community was by smooth talking the Nazi leaders. I listed a bunch of posts irt this in other threads including a must see documentary which supports my argument. Here is that post

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=199


In your defense Tame there were Muslims who gave up Jews in ww2 mostly in Europe, but this was a tiny percentage and of course I would blame this on complete human failure and greed.

Concerning the bold, not at all. The Germans never had direct control over large populations of Jews in North Africa. They never occupied Morocco or Algeria and their control of Tunisia was not lengthy. They did not have easy transport to concentration camps in Europe and given the continual pressure from the British and to a lesser extent the Americans, they did not have the opportunity to set up their genocidal activities.

I would agree that the Muslims were not enthusiastic about the German goals, but neither was Vichy which was also somewhat helpful to the Jews in North Africa. They still suffered hardships and loss of rights, but the genocide never got rolling.

No, I will certainly not concede this in the slightest as right now you are merely rewriting history to suit your own political agenda, and I take both affront and insult. There is little I see as worse than this.

The scenarios you compare are not identical in the slightest. The North-African German campaign was carried out almost completely by the Wehrmacht - not politicized forces like the SS. Know the difference, instead of fitting everything into movie stereotypes. These forces were generally fairly popular; Erwin Rommel was quite the hero amongst locals. Which makes sense as he was (at least in the beginning) inflicting great casualties on their colonial oppressors.

For a brief lecture on the actual relationship between Nazi-Germany and the Arab world, instead of your inventions and speculations you can read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relatio...the_Arab_world

50% in Europe compared to 1% in arab majority lands is all to telling. Considering that the Germans powers did control a significant portion of North Africa/Arab Majority lands during the years 1940-43. Here is part of history that you may not have been aware of

"Albania, a predominantly Muslim country, saved almost all of its resident Jewish population.The survival rate in the then Yugoslavia province of Kosovo was 60%, making it one of the areas with the highest Jewish survival rate in Europe.

Most of the 2,000 Jews of Albania were sheltered by the mostly Muslim population. Refik Veseli, a 17 year old Muslim boy, took in the family of Mosa and Gabriela Mandil, including their five year old son Gavra and his sister Irena, then refugees from Belgrade but originally from Novi Sad, for whom he had been working as an apprentice in their Tirana photographic shop. When the Germans took over from the Italians, he took them, and another Jewish family by night on long journey to his family village at Kruja, where they were protected by his parents for the war's duration, some 9 months later, even against Enver Hoxha's partisans. His example inspired his whole village to risk their lives in order to protect Jews.On receiving Gavra Mandil's request for them to be recognized as righteous, the authorities of Yad Vashem inscribed both Refka anbd Drita Veseli in 1988 among the Righteous. The story became better know after Albania's surviving Jewish community was allowed to perform aliyah in the 1990s, and many survivors told how their Albanian hosts vied for the privilege of offering sanctuary, on the grounds that it was an Islamic ethical obligation. Since that date, a further 50 Albanians have been registered among the ranks of the Righteous.

http://books.google.com/books?id=8ZbtAAAAMAAJ

Whats interesting is Albania was one of the more devastated countries of WW2, which was under German control during 43-44, yet during this time "Albania, a predominantly Muslim country, saved almost all of its resident Jewish population"

Same thing can be said for Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and all Muslim majority countries during ww2, the facts are provided in the 10min documentary, did you watch it? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JxL1idcI8o

Tame ,RLK. could you be more respectful? I am doing my utmost to be respectful toward you, please respect the facts of history.

http://books.google.com/books?id=8ZbtAAAAMAAJ

Actually Albania is a different story. It was adherence to a phenomenon called besa which is not part of Islam and is an extremely important part of Albanian culture for both Muslims and non-Muslims.

The bit about Algeria and Morocco is simply an error. German never occupied those countries the way it did the countries of Europe.

As far as showing you respect, it is difficult. Your islamophilia borders on delusional.

I keep trying to stop posting itt. I could succeed if you would be more factual.

I agree with most of this, but although Rommel did not particularly like the SS, I do not think he was prepared to resist. I think the survival of Jews in North Africa was primarily due to military factors.

The Einsatzgruppen were the forces specifically targeted with genocide. That they never made it to North Africa was fortunate for the Jews there. If the Germans had taken Egypt and Palestine it is probably that Muslim resistance to the Holocaust would have mirrored that by Christians in Europe. Basically high risk intervention by courageous persons of exceptional moral integrity.

Religiosity is more closely related to one's views on sexuality, rather than some moral code against stealing, killing, etc.


http://www.upenn.edu/pennnews/curren...ct-religiosity

Just like always tame, either you are not able to differ between thesis, argument and example and the role that they play in a proper reasoning, or you know it, but you manipulate it, cause you don't know a proper response.

I will not be responding to you anymore tame, RLK this time it will be indefinite, there is no point in continuing a debate with someone who does not understand history. You have crossed the line into Robert Spencer like Islamophobia by denying history.

Of course you are entitled to post but please stop spreading misinformation irt Jews/Muslims in ww2, you have insulted the Jews whom were protected by the Muslims in WW2. 50% compared to 1%, along with German control of large portions of North Africa from 40-43, and you have the audacity to deny history.



Watch the documentary, for the 20th time http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JxL1idcI8o

thekid345 has an air of alter2ego about him.

"You dare to disagree with me?! Ignore!"

I get much more of a splendor vibe. Maybe its all the links and using other peoples post as talking points but never really addressing their posts.

I did not deny anything. I was simply trying to bring some clarity to the forces at play in North Africa in WWII and how they may have influenced the survival of Jews in that region. My opinion is that attributing the survival of Jews in North Africa to the action of Muslims motivated by their religion is not sustainable. I think it was primarily a result of the military reality. The fact that major genocidal formations ie. the Einsatzgruppen, were not able to be deployed in North Africa is a significant piece of information. Those forces were able to operate freely in Europe given the stability of German control.

Why would I watch a random 10 minute documentary recommended by a Muslim apologist for factual information? The history of WWII has always been of particular interest to me, so I have read considerably on the history of the conflict in Africa and Eastern Europe.

The great majority of my posts are original content,

In maybe a few posts out of both threads I attempted to refer certain posters to the "ask about Islam thread" I have laid out long posts in detail in response to some of the misconceptions in these 2 recent threads.

Kid listen to RLK and tame deuces they are talking sense to you. They are not giving you sugar coated truth, just the truth. Don't take personal offence at their comments they are just giving you their honest opinions.

The medicine might be bitter but it is still good for you

I haven't written anything about Muslims and their willingness to save Jews, nor about the trends regarding muslims towards holocaust in North-Africa. This was a point only you brought up, and then once again you imagined that I replied and you answered yourself in some weird monologue you believed to be a dialogue. Feel free to re-read the posts and see for yourself. This immature habit is also fairly tiring, so your "threat" not to reply to me is most welcome. Rest assured that I will still reply to you.

To clarify my posts: I have merely noted that anti-semittism helped Nazi-Germany popular in the Arab world, which is something I have rarely seen disputed. You are aware of the 1300 year old tension between Jews and Muslims in this region of the world, I hope? It's not something that magically popped into existence during the last 5 decades. I also noted that German warfare in North-Africa did not mean usage of politized Nazi-forces, so we shouldn't expect genocidal warfare to the extent of what we saw in Europe (something you implied); a point RLK expanded upon.

If you are going to debate the Holocaust it would serve you well to know the difference between the SS and the Wehrmact. It is rather important, and it is very embarrasing on your part that you did not reflect on this when you started commenting on the North-Africa campaign.

Aye, this is well said. I don't even see how it is possible to give pretense of a balanced discussion and then ignore it completely. The aim is not to glorify the Wehrmact, it was obviously a military force that greatly aided the Nazi agenda and it certainly carried out its share of atrocities.

However, organized genocide was the domain of the SS, and their lack of operations in North-Africa is something we can safely conclude is the main reason genocide was not as rampant here.

It can also be noted that the Nurnberg trials noted likewise, and unlike the SS the Wehrmact was not judged to be inherently criminal. In fairness it should still be noted that many Wehrmact members were sentenced for war crimes.

Lemon,

This is laughable because in fact many of these Muslims who saved jews in Africa and Muslim majority countries during ww2 are honored by a multitude of Jewish organizations including some in Israel.

I have offered posters like coolerboy, tamedeauces and RLK a sort of offering of peace multiple times, I was not given an inch by either of them.

There were Nazi checkpoints in WW2 Africa, there were instances of elimination of jews in Africa/Arab majority countries in ww2, it was the Arab Muslims who bravely risked their life to prevent their Jewish communities from being arrested/killed on the spot. This is why many non religious scholars agree had Europe been ran by Muslims, millions of Jews would have lived.



This is beyond a complete joke, if this clown tame deauces was to deny the holocaust in Europe the responses would be different. Again we could have more visual evidence of the holocaust in Europe and Africa, but nonetheless we know it happened based on the disappearance of these jews.

One who denies how Muslims saved Jews from the WW2 German round ups in Arab majority countries exhibits a level of ignorance that offends both Jews and Muslims.



As for Albania, yes these Albanians were into besa, but they will gladly tell you "there is no besa w/o the Quran, there is no Quran w/o Besa, and to save a life is to gain entry into paradise"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MdxW6SnVNI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj8MgeFzTqA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vk3ixrUlcM


"Photographers Norman Gershman and Stuart Huck speak about their exhibition of photographs of Albanian and Kosovar Muslims who risked their lives to save the lives of Jews during World War II. They are joined by Johanna Neumann, a German Jew who survived the holocaust in Albania with assistance from Muslims.

Sponsored by the Holocaust Lecture Series"

These Albanian Muslims risked far more then any other human during WW2 to save jews, you are a coward if you deny this or try and say they are not Muslim.


As for Morocco, Algeria , and Tunisia, there were checkpoints all over the place. SS troops were stationed in North Africa during ww2. But of course Muslims did everything they could to hide jews in these countries.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JxL1idcI8o

Eventually the Germans Arrived in Morocco, "When the vichy authorities poured pressure on the King of Morocco, they told the king there were 200,000 yellow stars for the jews to wear, the king of Morocco said make 20 more b/c those are in my family, and there are no jews or Muslims in Morocco, only Moroccan subjects of the King"

"The imams of Algeris jointly issued a fatwa asking Muslims to not take part in the confiscation of Jewish land, every Muslim in Algeria accepted this"

While under German occupation"the newly crown prince of Tunisia thought of the jews as his own children" and did what he could to protect them


Islam and hospitality go a very long way. Always remember 1% compared to 50%.

Yes, I think we can all see now how you are truly the victim of ill-mannered personal attacks in this thread.

Muslims...not as bad as nazis. Cool argument, bro.

Of course I am talking about the Vichy/civilian populations of German territories during ww2. Had France/Poland been ran by Muslims then I assume more Jews would have lived. This was the case in the arab majority countries that were occupied by German forces. Again, 50% compared to 1%

I picked up on what your location Porada Ninfu, Lampukistan means, no wonder why you make the comments you do wrt this thread.

has this received any attention yet ?

for people unfamiliar with the history of Al Qaeda that may take this at face value, this post needs to be pointed out to be nearly 100% false and misleading.

well, their plan was to kill a bunch of people, and bait the United States into a ground war.

prrrretttty effective.

I'm glad you pointed this out as it is surprising how many people get this simple tidbit wrong.