Gambling is not an unambiguous term, so it's going to depend on what was meant in that context. What poker players think gambling means isn't as important as what whoever wrote that meant. Also, your suggested reason for why gambling is disallowed seems odd to me - are jobs which earn commission or casual/seasonal positions which are also 'unstable' equally frowned upon?


FWIW, I reject what seems your implied claim: that a game dominated by skill is not gambling. I think poker counts as gambling because it involves putting something tangible at risk based on the outcome of a random event. The fact you are applying a learnable skill in selecting which events to risk money on and which to drop out of doesn't imply it's not a gamble (in my opinion, anyhow).

It is not the same argument for both, which is what I have spent the past 30 posts explaining. You and I do not consider poker degenerative, which is one aspect. But that is not what the OP is asking. He is asking whether or not poker counts as gambling as far as the Qu'ran is concerned. Whether or not poker is new is irrelevant. In poker, you place bets on an unknown outcome of some arbitrary event. That's what the Qu'ran means by gambling.

This is why I have distanced myself from RGT lately. The threads always wind up devolving into nitpicking everything and flinging around equivocations hoping that it will somehow cause the entire argument to come crashing down. We all know what the term 'gambling' means in the general sense.

You're overcomplicating this so much. If poker is gambling (i think it is), then yes, The Quran considers it haraam. If you believe it is not, then its not haraam. Right? However, again for my 30th post to you! The difference in answers all boils down to one key argument.

Is poker a form of gambling?

It is only over complicated because you keep trying to take the conversation in a new irrelevant direction. It has nothing to do with whether or not you receive a regular paycheck, nor whether you consider poker degenerative, nor some mysterious 'difference in answers.' When somebody asks you if you gamble, you do not wonder whether or not they are asking you if you drive a car or if you are a carpenter. It is very simple: the general use of the term 'gambling' refers to placing a bet on an unknown outcome. That is it. This is how virtually everybody uses the term and the way that virtually everybody interprets it when somebody else says it. And poker qualifies.

Yes, it is.

then you do not understand poker.

There are a number of ways he could have meant 100% skill and I doubt the one he meant was, 'I can control every aspect of every hand.'

So do you agree that if I give you $50 to play roulette, then playing roulette with that $50 is not gambling?

No of course that is gambling. Why?

Thanks for the replies guys.

This, amongst many other informative posts, really got me thinking.

Where do you draw the line? For example, pre-marital relationships do not exist in Islam, because it can lead to haram, and is thus a sin.

It can lead to haram because girlfriend/boyfriend would be tempted to have sex before marriage, etc. But where do you draw the line?

What about going to a co-ed school? With both sexes. This was not around many years ago, but in the way society has developed today, it is becoming more and more impossible to avoid contact with the other sex (i'm not talking about sexual contact, i'm talking about everyday general contact such as talking, working, studying etc)

So where do you draw the line? For me I feel that poker has developed greatly in the recent past, and is increasingly becoming an intellectual pursuit. I can't even think about it in terms of gambling, because I approach it exactly in the same way I would approach chess when I studied it - Reading books, talking with other players, processing hands played etc etc in order to become more skilled at the game of cards.

Unlike other forms of gambling, where you are against the casino, you are wagering against other opponents on what is at the core a game of skill, mathematics and probability masked by a deck of cards, predetermined rules, and general etiquette. What makes this so different than other sport? In other sports you have other intervening features but at the core remains a game of skill in which people participate on the sporting field in order to compete.

There is no difference of opinion among the jurists that every sort of gambling is harmful, except betting for horse race and archery which have been declared lawful for persuading for horsemanship archery and preparation for Jihad.

So after thinking about both sides it just seems to be where you draw the line yourself, because people are going to be able to find merits from both sides. So where do you draw the line?

Since my conversion to Islam, I am very concerned about my poker playing, and am questioning my passion deeply. I'm anxious to know whether it is just a sin that I have fallen too, or infact it's a benefical addition to my life, and something I can continue pursuing without being sinful.

In the end only Allah can judge me, but I just want to do the right thing.

Sorry for the rants and a lot doesn't make sense, but important topic for me right now.

Any more thoughts?

P.S What I mean by drawing the line is that everything in life can lead to haram, so for example do you draw the line at girlfriends, school, talking to girls in general etc, same with gambling, do you draw line at gambling, poker/sports (which i believe many to be the same, amongst other general professions in life, completely up to interpretation of course), learning about sports/poker etc (which can lead to interest which can lead to playing etc so on so forth)... hope you guys get my point

Afaik, poker is gambling and gambling is forbidden in Islam. It doesnt matter if poker(or any other game) is a pure luck game or skill.

Afaik, gambling is defined based on money(or some other valuables) changing hands without producing any product or giving any service.

Reasoning in religions are always tricky. After all religions are dogmatic. You dont commit sins not because they are dangerous to humans/community but because God said so and your faith. This is even more true at Islam, after all it means "submission". But at the same time Qurán says "God is wise and acts with reason" and it encourages you to understand why and what you are (not) doing. A bit weird. My interpretation is you should balance them.

For where to draw line question. At Qurán at several places it doesnt say dont commit sins but it says dont get close to it. So it says you should stay away from sins and sinners. But in modern age if you stay away from every sin you should be living in a cave this is not accepted good either. This is called taqwa and it ends at you where to draw line. Your conscience should be your guide.

One last thing. According to Islam, rejecting something is a sin is more dangerous than accepting it is a sin but still doing it. Keep this in mind.

This is where I will make my own interpretation, first of all I just simply don't believe poker is gambling, given that I approach it just like I approach other serious hobbies/passions amongst other reasons (it's pure skill, etc)

When it comes to what gambling is defined as, money is changing hands and providing entertainment for those involved and possibly others observing. On the stockmarket, for example, people are gambling on what can be peoples life savings, and money is changing hands - yet many sheiks would say this is permissible under Islam. In poker, the vast majority of money being traded is merely of recreational purpose, and problem gamblers dominate "true" venues of gambling, such as slot machines, roulette etc.

And I guess that's where I'm going to draw the line. In the world and society that we live in today, it's becoming increasingly difficult to maintain Islam beliefs and views because of the severe confrontation with the world. For example, it's near impossible to avoid contact with other sex (apart from family, cousins etc) pre-marriage. And I don't think Allah would want be to suddenly "dump" all my friends that are girls after converting, it doesn't seem right. Same goes with poker, a passion for me that has been beneficial to my life, in many aspects including socially (people i've met) financially, opportunity wise etc. I'm not going to uplift such huge parts of my life that would cause such turmoil, especially when I truly don't believe them to be sins that he was referring to.

In the end only Allah can judge me, and our personal relationship remains what it is, personal. If I am sinning then I will have to beg for forgiveness.

Thanks for all the replies, really got me thinking

And obv I am biased to keep playing poker lol

poker is a mix of chance and skill, with bets involved. as soon as bets are made under any kind of uncertainty, then you're gambling.

i don't care what you believe. you'd may as well be saying "i simply don't believe the earth is round". just because you treat it like other hobbies or passions does not diminish the gambling aspect of it.

I'm sure there are plenty of Muslims who love to play slots and try to justify it by saying, "I just do it for entertainment, I don't consider it gambling." Does that mean they're not gambling?

Poker is pure skill. Bets are never made under any kind of uncertainty, because they all come from carefully proposed strategy and tactics that are derived from a variety of factors, resulting in a pure skill based decision.

If you argue that hardly anyone else plays like this, then I will take the argument back to where do you draw the line? Almost everything is haram in the world we live today, and it's nearly impossible (especially in my society) to live according to the core laws of Islam as it was 1400ish years ago.

So it's not what I believe, but it's what I know. My interpretation of poker is likely going to be a lot different than yours. I know poker is pure skill, thus it cannot be gambling.

I'm sure there are too, and that doesn't make it any less of a form of gambling. But comparing slots and poker are two different things, and I would completely agree with you on that one.

You're obviously not convinced poker isn't gambling or you wouldn't have started this thread. If gambling in your religion is "strictly forbidden", and you're not sure poker isn't gambling, then why risk it?

I was looking for other views and more insight into the matter - which people have provided very well, and generated interesting discussion, which i'm grateful for.

I guess because it's hard to convert and then suddenly overturn your life, if you know what I'm saying. Being a professional poker player, having a girlfriend etc - it's not as simple as just up and going. Furthermore, I don't want to give up poker when I believe it is increasingly becoming an intellectual pursuit, rather than a form of gambling.

If you think it's all skill and no luck, how do you explain the fact that the best player doesn't always win?

Even "in the long run" there are bad players who end up having done better than good players.

Is monopoly 100% skill too?

How do you explain lousy players like Chris Moneymaker and Jamie Gold?

Never heard of them. However, whether they're good or bad, I "explain them" by noting that there is a significant element of skill in poker. Bad players will usually do badly and good players will usually do well - nonetheless there will always be exceptions, because there is such a large degree of chance.

Lol..im kidding. I agree with you.

What do they call it again? Variance?

Wrong. Poker was invented in Persia some 3000 years ago and went by the name Aas. Islam is like what? 1400 years old?

You want to back that up with a link or source?

again, you may as well be saying that the earth is flat. there's an important concept in poker science called variance. no matter how much skill you might have, variance can at any point decide to take you on such a huge downswing that you'll go broke.

the presence of variance in a game directly implies that the game involves gambling. you might have the best of it in the long run, but what you're doing in the short run is making bets against opponents whose hole cards you simply cannot know (unless you're cheating).

i'm not saying the game doesn't involve skill. it does. but it also involves chance. no amount of skill can prevent a K from peeling off in an AA vs KK all in pre-flop showdown. sure, you'll probably win in the long run with AA vs KK aipf, but there's no guarantee.

poker is gambling. claims of certainty to the contrary without really explaining why do not an argument make.

I KNOW THE EARTH IS FLAT, THUS IT CANNOT BE ROUND. < this is how much sense you're making.

There is variance in everything, on lower and bigger scales. In poker, it's far more extreme. The edges are smaller, and everything is broken down much much more compared to other professions/sports etc. In Tennis, there is variance too, albeit much lower. Such as in sports such as boxing - variance in how often you will get injured, how often you will cut your opponent with this punch etc.

The fact the the best player doesn't always win is like saying why doesn't the person that performs the most morally and ethically in life have everything. It's just tough and that's the way life is.

You're right, you cannot know your opponents hole cards. But you can make an educated and increasingly accurate assumption of their range according to your level of hand reading - once again, pure skill.

You are also correct in saying no amount of skill can prevent a K from peeling off in AA vs KK, and countless other scenarios, that is correct. But you are meant to lose a portion of the time, and win more. The more you play, the more it will theoretically level out.

Going back to what I said before, just because a game isn't "fair", doesn't make it luck or gambling etc. The difference between poker and other forms of gambling are that you actually play against your opponent and your opponent only, you aren't playing against the house. You make your odds against your opponent based on your level of skill vs their level of skill. In poker, there is enough skill involved in order to gain an edge to beat the game and your opponent. To me, this is a lot different than other pure forms of gambling.

I agree with you that there is variance in poker, and it is far more severe than most professions/sports/hobbies/passions etc, but it is inherent in everything and just shows up more abruptly in poker.