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03-10-2011 , 07:13 PM

#26

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Icheckforvalue

No the ones who do have jobs but don't have work because the companies they work for are not getting work.

How is having a job with no work distinguishable from not having a job at all?

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03-10-2011 , 07:15 PM

#27

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Originally Posted by rizeagainst

...because of some "arbitrary deciding factors"

The economy and your proficiency to do your job are not arbitrary.

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03-10-2011 , 07:16 PM

#28

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Originally Posted by rizeagainst

If you honestly do not understand that there is a difference between someone wagering $100 that the next time the wheel stops the marble will land on a black number and poker I do not know what to tell you.

Reread the thread. I literally stated that there was a difference. The problem is that the difference is not whether or not it is gambling.

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03-10-2011 , 07:18 PM

#29

rizeagainst

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Deorum

The economy.

You're right, being vulnerable to the economy is actually currently a worse position to be in than to be vulnerable to a turn of a card. Both people are gambling in different senses. Does an employee at a supermarket have the ability to change the economy? Or the next card off the deck?

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03-10-2011 , 07:19 PM

#30

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Originally Posted by rizeagainst

You're right, being vulnerable to the economy is actually currently a worse position to be in than to be vulnerable to a turn of a card.

Even if this were true it is irrelevant as to whether or not it is gambling.

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03-10-2011 , 07:22 PM

#31

rizeagainst

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Deorum

Even if this were true it is irrelevant as to whether or not it is gambling.

What can the average worker change about the overall economy? Roughly about how well they can change the river card on full tilt.

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03-10-2011 , 07:25 PM

#32

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That is irrelevant as to whether or not it is gambling too.

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03-10-2011 , 07:26 PM

#33

rizeagainst

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You say that poker is gambling and I show you a way in which a regular job is very, very similar to poker and that's irrelevant to a discussion on whether regular jobs mirror "gambling"?

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03-10-2011 , 07:29 PM

#34

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No, it is irrelevant to a discussion on whether regular jobs are actually gambling. I already agree that poker is very similar to a normal job in a number of ways.

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03-10-2011 , 07:32 PM

#35

Icheckforvalue

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Deorum

How is having a job with no work distinguishable from not having a job at all?

It is distinguishable because not having a job means you don't have one. Having a job which is contingent upon the economy/market and is not always guaranteed to pay means its the nature of the job.

There are private business owners who may not be able to pay their workers out of pocket, when they infact are not getting work or are re-imbursed themselves. So how do you expect them to pay? They are still employed right? Just a dry season. There is no such thing as a guaranteed paycheck is my point.

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03-10-2011 , 07:33 PM

#36

rizeagainst

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A regular job is "gambling". It just isn't "gambling" in the EXACT same sense as in poker. There is more than 1 way to gamble. When you get in your car and drive to a friend's house, you are essentially, gambling that you will not get in a car accident. In fact, if anything this is gambling moreso than poker could be, since when you get in car you are risking your health and your life, not money. Some "regular jobs" also entail similar bodily risks. I would consider them to be more of a "gamble" than poker. Everything in life could be characterized under the heading "gambling". It's not a particularly helpful or meaningful word.

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03-10-2011 , 07:39 PM

#37

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Icheckforvalue

It is distinguishable because not having a job means you don't have one. Having a job which is contingent upon the economy/market and is not always guaranteed to pay means its the nature of the job.

Quote:

There are private business owners who may not be able to pay their workers out of pocket, when they infact are not getting work or are re-imbursed themselves. So how do you expect them to pay? They are still employed right? Just a dry season. There is no such thing as a guaranteed paycheck is my point.

Sure. But this is entirely irrelevant as to whether or not having such a job is the same thing as gambling.

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03-10-2011 , 07:40 PM

#38

Icheckforvalue

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Quote:

Originally Posted by rizeagainst

...because of some "arbitrary deciding factors"

I agree with you this time. It is gambling. It is a gamble, much like an investment of time and energy to work hard, make good impressions, get promoted, etc. Lots of things in life are a gamble. You just have to put it in a different perspective.

So, no need for sarcasm, sir.

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03-10-2011 , 07:43 PM

#39

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Originally Posted by rizeagainst

I agree.

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Everything in life could be characterized under the heading "gambling". It's not a particularly helpful or meaningful word.

It is not a particularly helpful or meaningful word if you use it in the sense you describe above, which is exactly my point. This is clearly not the context the Qu'ran is using when it states that gambling is forbidden.

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03-10-2011 , 07:44 PM

#40

Icheckforvalue

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Deorum

This is not a distinction. You are using different words to describe the same result. Not working means you are not working regardless of whether or not you have the title of 'having a job.' When there is a job for you to do, you get paid.

Sure. But this is entirely irrelevant as to whether or not having such a job is the same thing as gambling.

I think it is a distinction. Because when a carpenter has work and throws in 60 hours a week for several months, he will make enough to get through the dry times. I would not call somebody like that, who experiences expected income droughts, jobless.

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03-10-2011 , 07:49 PM

#41

rizeagainst

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Deorum

I agree.

It is not a particularly helpful or meaningful word if you use it in the sense you describe above, which is exactly my point. This is clearly not the context the Qu'ran is using when it states that gambling is forbidden.

Yes, of course the Qu'ran was probably referring to ancient goat herders playing checkers for who gets the extra loaf of bread at dinner tonight. However we, as people in the 21st century, must recognize that we take more important gambles than that in nearly every facet of our life. This goes to show how short-sighted and inapplicable this book is to a 21st century society, and should ruin the idea that it is "holy" or anything other than random ramblings of desert dwelling humans who had no idea what they were talking about.

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03-10-2011 , 07:54 PM

#42

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Icheckforvalue

Not being paid in regular intervals is not the same thing as not being paid at all. When you do work, you get paid, and you do not have to wager your own money on the outcome of an arbitrary event. This is not true of gambling, at least not in the context of what the Qu'ran means, which is the topic of this thread.

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03-10-2011 , 07:57 PM

#43

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Quote:

Originally Posted by rizeagainst

This is beyond the scope of the OP. OP was asking whether or not poker constituted gambling in the sense in which the Qu'ran uses it, and it clearly does. Selling cars clearly does not.

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03-10-2011 , 08:02 PM

#44

Icheckforvalue

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Deorum

This is true. I agree. The most dominant perception of gambling all throughout the world is still "degenerative".

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03-10-2011 , 08:03 PM

#45

rizeagainst

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Deorum

This is beyond the scope of the OP. OP was asking whether or not poker constituted gambling in the sense in which the Qu'ran uses it, and it clearly does. Selling cars clearly does not.

What does it matter if the sense in which the Qu'ran uses the word shows the Qu'ran to be ignorant?

We might as well be talking about ****ing Dr. Suess's Green Eggs and Ham and asking nobody to spoil the fact that it's not a true story for the dude that just picked it up.

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03-10-2011 , 08:09 PM

#46

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Icheckforvalue

This is true. I agree. The most dominant perception of gambling all throughout the world is still "degenerative".

Sure, and that is probably why people thought it would be a good idea to label gambling as forbidden in the Qu'ran in the first place. But we need not consider this ITT, because OP was not asking about whether or not poker ought to be viewed in the same light as other casino games, he asked whether or not it fell into the same category of gambling that the other games do, and it clearly does. In short, while the reason the folks who wrote the Qu'ran consider gambling to be bad may not be applicable to winning poker players, if you are only concerned with what the book itself means then poker falls into the same category as other gambling and is forbidden.

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03-10-2011 , 08:11 PM

#47

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Quote:

Originally Posted by rizeagainst

It matters because that is the question the OP was asking. I agree that it should not matter.

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03-10-2011 , 09:14 PM

#48

Icheckforvalue

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Deorum

Lol...i don't get it. Whats the difference here?

Should poker be viewed in the same light as other casino games?

Does poker fall into the same category of gambling as other games?

To me, it seems, that the essential argument in both questions is one and the same.

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03-10-2011 , 09:24 PM

#49

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Icheckforvalue

The difference is that one is what we personally think about poker and the other is what the Qu'ran says about poker. OP asked for the latter, not the former. The Qu'ran does not read, 'gambling is forbidden unless you have a positive expected value' it reads, 'gambling is forbidden.'

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03-10-2011 , 09:33 PM

#50

Icheckforvalue

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I still don't see the difference. Same argument for both. Quran cannot account for poker since it is a relatively new form of gambling. OP believes it is 100% skill and there lays the problem. Poker is not 100% skill, it is still a form of gambling, there may be a much higher amount of skill required to be succesful at poker than at other gambling forms, but the element of chance still heavily outweighs the element of skill.

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