Hey,

In Islam, in the holy Qu'ran, it states that all gambling is strictly forbidden and haram.

My question is, does poker lay outside of general gambling? Gambling is forbidden in Islam due to the fact that there is too much chance and it is better to have a stable job, so to speak, and not to be filtering your money away.

But poker, for me, is an 100% skill game, and I approach it in a way that allows it to be skill. I don't practise any other form of gambling. I'm confused right now because everything is saying it's haram, but I just feel that it's being looked at like poker is looked at in most courts - a game more dominated by luck rather than skill.

Any thoughts?

Poker didn't exist when the Qur'an was written so I doubt it came up when Allah and Muhammad were chatting.

Even the stock market is a form of gambling, and thus forbidden.

Remember that poker is still gambling. It doesn't matter if you have a 51/49 edge, the element of chance is still there. Same thing if it's 99/1.

Change your religion buddy

This feels awkward because whatever we do in life, we cannot escape chance.

Roulette and craps can be reduced to 100% skill as well. The only difference is that in poker your expectation can be positive and in other casino games it cannot.

In most jobs you are not wagering your own money. You get paid regardless of the outcome of your employer.

True, but does that mean Muslims cannot be entrepreneurs?

The fact that poker is played in a casino should be a good indicator that it is closer to "gambling" (as used in the Quran) than starting a business.

But the amount you get paid is dependent on the outcome of your employer to some extent - certainly in the long term there is an element of chance in all jobs and in some (eg commission based jobs) that element is active on a day-to-day basis.

I think this illustrates a common problem for religions - that books written a long time ago clearly have no concept of the world we live in today. Thus trying to apply moral codes to current day issues is problematic. For example, when "Thou shall not kill" was written, the concept of when exactly life begins was not made clear leading to the entire abortion debate. With foresight, maybe God could have been a bit more definitive in books he relies on to be the basis of faith for thousands of years.

As stated, whether poker is "gambling", depends on your definition of "gambling". If this is determined by the chance of losing your money, I think entrepreneurs fit the definition much better than decent poker professionals. However, if this is a moral stance that it is bad to take money from others "unearned", I think poker is gambling, but entrepreneurship is not.

If you are concerned, I suggest you pray to your God and say that you believe poker is allowed, but if he disagrees to appear before you and tell you otherwise - problem solved!

When you go to sleep you might not ever wake up. Remember, going to sleep is gambling, even if you have a 99.9999999 to 0.00000001 edge. Better stay awake, or you're violating the Holy Qu'ran.

Wat?

You get paid as a result of the outcomes of your employer. Not regardless of them. MANY people have sales jobs where their paycheck is a direct result of their sales, and their sales can in turn, by dictated by huge luck factors.

If you go to work and nobody comes in your store today (by sheer chance) yeah, you're probably going to be paid for your work that night, but you're going to be out of a job by next week.

That's be a ratio of 1:1,000,000,000?

If you assume that you go to bed once a day, that'd be roughly 2.75 million years. I doubt that anyone so far (besides God of course and the angels) lived so far, especially given that the Earth and the Universe are only 6,000 years old.

I think poker is only gambling if you go all-in with AKs and expect to flop a Royal Flush.

This is not the same thing as risking losing your own money for a chance to gain more. Risking failure is not the same as wagering your money in a game of chance.

[ ] game of chance
[x] game of intellect, psychology, math, analytical skills, personality and chance

Most jobs are not commission based and those that are generally do not require you to put up your own money for a chance to gain more depending upon an arbitrary deciding factor like dice. In those which are not, your employer is compelled to pay you the amount on which the two of you agreed upon taking the job. She may voluntarily give you more for doing well and may fire you for doing poorly, but that does not mean you are gambling.

Tell that to the millions of laborers (carpenters/contractors/electricians/plumbers, etc) who are not getting paychecks for months at a time sometimes when work is dry.

FYP

You mean the ones who do not have a job...

[ ] fmp

No the ones who do have jobs but don't have work because the companies they work for are not getting work.

...because of some "arbitrary deciding factors"

If you honestly do not understand that there is a difference between somebody selling cars and somebody wagering $100 that the next time the wheel stops the marble will land on a black number I do not know what to tell you.

If you honestly do not understand that there is a difference between someone wagering $100 that the next time the wheel stops the marble will land on a black number and poker I do not know what to tell you.