ISIS Threatens Christians in Mosul - Page 4 - Religion, God, and Theology

What I meant was that a neutral effort to simply prevent the massacre for no other reason than that massacres are wrong, is preferable to 'the other side' stepping in, because it doesn't run the risk of escalating the problem in that way that I feel it becoming a religious gang war would.

There exists no neutral effort, and escalation will not stop by doing nothing.

Last edited by tame_deuces; 08-22-2014 at 09:13 AM.

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08-22-2014 , 10:02 AM

#77

Mightyboosh

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Originally Posted by tame_deuces

There exists no neutral effort, and escalation will not stop by doing nothing.

Well, there may not be entirely neutral efforts but there are less provocative efforts than a definitively 'Christian' response. Plus, the massacres have to stop eventually whereas a religious intervention could turn this into something even bigger than it already is and fan the flames of fanaticism.

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08-22-2014 , 10:16 AM

#78

tame_deuces

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Originally Posted by Mightyboosh

Sadly, I think it is completely irrelevant what the pope says. That provocation exists regardless.

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08-22-2014 , 10:52 AM

#79

Mightyboosh

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Originally Posted by tame_deuces

Sadly, I think it is completely irrelevant what the pope says. That provocation exists regardless.

It's getting pretty scary I think. I find this much more frightening than what's happening in the Ukraine.

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US defence chiefs have spelled out their conviction that a complex long-term war will be needed, with intervention in both Syria and Iraq, if Islamic State's "caliphate" is to be uprooted from those two countries.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28900096

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08-22-2014 , 05:22 PM

#80

thekid345

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Originally Posted by Mightyboosh

Right, so what this really boils down to, given that the pope has no obvious moral justification for encouraging the use of force, is religious gang warfare. I fail to see how another religious gang getting involved is going to improve this situation.

If the effort were humanitarian, that would be completely different.

What other religious gang is getting involved?

Pope Francis does not command armies, he is merely asking other nations, made up of Christians and non Christians to use force to help save others.

I guess one could make a case for somehow bringing back the Knights Templars/Hospitaller to take on ISIS. It would be quite audacious though.

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08-22-2014 , 06:01 PM

#81

Mightyboosh

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Originally Posted by thekid345

It's the Pope, he's not just some nice old bloke who happens to have an opinion you know, he's the leader of a church that has a history of combating Islam going back a very very long time, you think an announcement like this from him just doesn't mean anything?

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08-22-2014 , 06:19 PM

#82

tame_deuces

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Originally Posted by thekid345

The Hospitallers still exist.

Without this being significant to your statement however, but they were never disbanded.

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08-23-2014 , 03:09 PM

#83

thekid345

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Originally Posted by Mightyboosh

The Church has a history of approving of fighting others for just reasons, as opposed to combating Islam. In the past, Christians have teamed up for a good cause to fight groups that happened to be Muslim, such as the Battle of Vienna in 1683. This is not the case here in 2014 wrt Pope Francis and Iraq. There are Christian militias in Iraq but we dont have Christians flocking to Iraq to help the people of Iraq.

Last edited by thekid345; 08-23-2014 at 03:14 PM. Reason: fixed a typo

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08-23-2014 , 10:17 PM

#84

Hardball47

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Originally Posted by rockfsh

" Extremists occupying large swaths of Iraq and Syria have issued a threat to Iraqi Christians in the city of Mosul to accept Islam, pay extra taxes to Islamic Sharia courts or face "death by the sword."

Convert, Pay Tax or Die

It's actually convert, pay tax, or leave.

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08-23-2014 , 10:37 PM

#85

Hardball47

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Originally Posted by BeaucoupFish

There are some videos that look to have been produced by ISIS themselves floating around that are utterly horrifying. Truckloads of Iraqis I presume being shipped off to execution sites where they are forced into firing ranges and murdered en mass. Another execution site on a river bank, a concrete area that is dripping red with fresh blood, people are pushed into view and a gun leveled to the back of their head, and their bodies fall off into the river, repeated every few seconds like a horrific production line.

I don't know how much this is really about religion, but more an outlet for actual sociopaths to kill as many people as they want. What is missing in someone's head that slaughters hundreds of human beings in a matter of minutes with less regard than the slaughter of animals?

WTF? PM links.

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08-29-2014 , 09:49 AM

#86

Mightyboosh

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Originally Posted by thekid345

This is not what I envisioned, it's not an issue of Christians streaming to fight in Iraq so much as how the pope's message will affect the opinions and justifications of ISIS themselves. I feel that it's simply going to make them more steadfast in their views and further reinforce their sense of righteousness on what they're doing. It certainly doesn't help to make this less a religious conflict does it.

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08-30-2014 , 10:50 PM

#87

themistocles khan

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Looks like ISIS is provoking a re-run of this:

"In 1095 an assembly of churchmen called by Pope Urban II met at Clermont, France. Messengers from the Byzantine Emperor Alexius Comnenus had urged the pope to send help against the armies of Muslim Turks. On November 27 the pope addressed the assembly and asked the warriors of Europe to liberate the Holy Land from the Muslims. The response of the assembly was overwhelmingly favorable. Thus was launched the first and most successful of at least eight crusades against the Muslim caliphates of the Near East.

"God wills it!"" source: http://history-world.org/crusades.htm

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08-31-2014 , 12:29 AM

#88

thekid345

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Originally Posted by themistocles khan

But what would the new emblem be?

Here is a possibility,

Godfrey of Bouillon, had the ability to recognize the importance of Jerusalem, Godrey was said to refuse the title of King of Jerusalem, as Godfrey believed Christ was the true King of Jerusalem. I could only imagine how interesting and inspiring it would be to be there during the 1st crusades and to see the crusaders take back Jerusalem, and raise cross's all over the city.

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09-22-2014 , 02:21 PM

#89

thekid345

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Recently, Muslims, Chrisitans and others welcomed Pope Francis to Albania

Pope Francis hails Albania as model of religious harmony in attack on ISIS

Pope Francis condemned the “distortion and manipulation” of religious belief by extremists during a one-day visit to Albania in which he held up the tiny Balkan nation as a model of religious harmony.

In what was interpreted as a reference to the savage rule of Isil in Iraq and Syria and the sectarian violence sweeping other parts of the Muslim world, the 77-year-old pontiff said on Sunday that nobody should use God as a "shield" with which to justify "acts of violence and oppression".

...

The Vatican said the Pope had chosen to visit relatively obscure Albania because he wanted to highlight the harmony between Christians and Muslims at a time when terrorist groups are twisting religious beliefs and butchering innocent people.

.....

During a speech in the presidential palace, he contrasted religious intolerance in other parts of the world with the example of Albania, a country of three million people where around 60 per cent are Muslim, 15 per cent Catholic and the rest Christian Orthodox.“There is a rather beautiful characteristic of Albania, one which gives me great joy: I am referring to the peaceful coexistence and collaboration that exists among followers of different religions,” the Pope said during the first address of his one-day trip to the Balkan nation, where religion was suppressed for decades under the dictator Enver Hoxha.“The climate of respect and mutual trust between Catholics, Orthodox and Muslims is a precious gift to the country,” he said.

more,

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ty-nation.html

I feel that the Pope is an effective leader in the battle against ISIL. One of the things that stood out to me irt the Popes visit to Albania, was how the Pope talked about the terror that the communist regime in Albania inflicted on its religious communities. The Pope gave a motivational speech to the folks who were persecuted by communist rule in Albania

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cq2kuoxr7Hs

During a visit to Tirana’s St Paul’s Cathedral, the Pope wept when he heard the testimony a priest, 84-year-old Ernesto Troshani, who for 28 years was imprisoned, tortured and subjected to forced labour after refusing to speak out against the Catholic Church.
The Pope, visibly moved by his account, wept and held the priest in a long embrace.

"Today I touched the martyrs," the pontiff said, adding that he had been “shocked” to read of the extent of the Communist regime’s persecution of religion.

Also,

September 21, 2014. Pope Francis met with the six spiritual leaders of the main religious confessions of Albania: Muslims, Bektashis, Catholics, Orthodox, Evangelicals and Jews.

At about the 1:40 min mark, the Pope turned into sort of a comedian and provided a "sense of humor"

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09-22-2014 , 06:38 PM

#90

frommagio

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thekid - You keep on saying "irt" in your posts. What does that mean?

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09-22-2014 , 10:41 PM

#91

thekid345

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Originally Posted by frommagio

thekid - You keep on saying "irt" in your posts. What does that mean?

in regards to

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09-25-2014 , 06:26 PM

#92

Goater

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Quote:

Originally Posted by thekid345

I could only imagine how interesting and inspiring it would be to be there during the 1st crusades and to see the crusaders take back Jerusalem, and raise cross's all over the city.

As a holy warrior of god, I assume?

"During the crusade, knights, peasants and serfs from many nations of Western Europe travelled over land and by sea, first to Constantinople and then on towards Jerusalem. The Crusaders arrived at Jerusalem, launched an assault on the city, and captured it in July 1099, massacring many of the city's Muslim, Christian, and Jewish inhabitants."

Wikipedia

Not to mention the brutal destruction of numerous Jewish communities in Europe before they even left...

The irony of you being roused by the romance of holy war in a thread about ISIS is incredible.

You are truly morally bankrupt.

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