I believe we have been conditioned to think that the world cannot be changed. Evil will rule, economy is necessary, bad men must live in prisons, rape, murder, hate....none of these things can change for the better. That there will always be war and conflict.

I think I have a tangible solution, and one part of the solution is to teach religious tolerance (or awareness) in schools, to put it ahead of all other subjects. Why would gym class be important but not something that teaches compassion and wholeness.

Any thoughts? I think this is one of the obvious solutions to world peace.

There is no solution, there are things that may help, but no solution. Religious tolerance is a terrible approach. That's the same thing as teaching ignorance tolerance where everyone doesn't question things that are logically ridiculous. Tolerance is a good thing, but it can be a bad thing just like balance. If you allow a moron to talk a lot and express their opinions, which are factually incorrect, you allow the infectious spread of stupidity, as some people will end up agreeing with him. Old fox news, when they were completely bat**** insane is a good example of that.

Anyway, we have a lot of problems in the world. Even if all those problems were solved, men will still want women they can't have, people will always brag and want better stuff than others, and people will do stupid antagonistic stuff that will promote violence against them or others. Human nature won't change because of any one thing, everyone won't be equal, and *******s won't stop existing. If you're talking about world peace in the sense of no wars, that involves just getting rid of dictators and nations like the US, China, Russia edging out all these smaller nations and putting people they can deal with in charge.

Intelligence, health, these things are paramount to helping the world become more peaceful. Religious tolerance at high levels is just a hindrance to world peace, because it promotes the spread of lies, and the preaching of intolerance.

This may be true, I'm not so sure. But what I am sure of, is that we've been educated and conditioned all our lives to believe there is no solution...I'm guessing we agree on that?

I think this kind of teaching breeds that questioning that you think is important. And that tolerance is balance.


in this thread we talked about what intelligence is http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/47...gence-1198574/

the lack of intelligence you talk of here, I believe comes from being sheltered and not able to see the world beyond yourself etc.

Isn't fox news and the like just an example of the world being cut off from other cultures?


these things you are naming are really just product of a corrupt, unintelligent, society that segments itself by different beliefs....like an abused child becoming an abuser.

In our schools we are taught survival of the fittest and competition and ruthlessness ....and then we say the world can't be equal? Thats just our education isn't it?


It is the belief of the people that allows these leaders to rule. Also it is the divisions made by culture religion and nationalism etc. that keeps these people supporting their leaders. We don't need to teach people to stop, we just need to connect them. Teaching them to stop is forcing our beliefs....connecting them allows them to flower the same realizations.


Intelligence we found has no foundation, peak physical health depends on intelligence and the destruction of capitalism. But there is also mental health, and spiritual health as even if we don't believe in a certain religion, we can't say birth school, work, family death, is everything.


No it doesn't promote lies, it does the opposite, it allows others to see themselves in others, it dispels fear, and encourages true learning and searching. It is what evil and darkness fears.



I'd also like to suggest that we are a new age of sort of Christian, I won't really speak for you. But I have a Christian name, I count years since christs death, I celebrated Christian holidays. I sung songs in school like god save the queen (well god keep our land glorious and free). And so forth. There is an immense amount of conditioning that I can pretty much coin 'democracy'.

As a non religious person, I think I don't have beliefs but really democracy is a religion. I believe state and church should be separate, school should be public, I believe government should only have so much power etc. What if my belief the world should not be religious is just another person tugging a different direction and really I should Immerse myself in others beliefs and others should immerse themselves in my beliefs.

We can agree that most people agree there's no solution. We can agree that it's an accepted truth. We could debate it being the truth, but I wouldn't entertain such a ridiculous notion.

Dunno what you mean. If people want to keep their beliefs to themselves then they're fine, believe whatever so long as it doesn't harm anyone besides yourself. But if someone is preaching or extolling the value of their religion, it's up to debate.


It's true that being around more people generally helps one become more intelligent, as do experiencing different cultures and whatnot, however, being exposed to stupidity on a constant basis is not something that promotes intelligence, or perhaps more accurately a better understanding of the world and the people in it. Not sure what you mean about fox news, either way they've gotten better lately, but they're still preaching an angle like any other news network.

No, it's the product of being a human, or perhaps alive. You don't have everything you want from birth, if you have wants you're exploitable. Everyone is exploitable. If someone has wants and sees a situation or person that's exploitable some will take advantage of it. We can't all be content in this world as it stands. We've got lots of years of improved farming technique before we're anywhere close to that. But even then, we humans like to occupy ourselves and having better stuff is a drive for a vast majority of humans. All of this stuff is part of what makes us human, and there's no changing the worlds nature in our lifetime. People will always have wants.

It's not school, it's life. If you didn't grow up in this generation you'd probably be a bit more in tune with that. Back in the depression you wouldn't think survival of the fittest was a bad thing. Anytime before that, you wouldn't think it's a bad thing. Hell, it's the only reason we've survived as a species. It's our nature, once again. All of this is stuff that helps people, when they don't live cushy lives and life is struggle. Tell anyone doing well in any 3rd world country who got their wealth on their own that survival of the fittest, and competition are bad things. I mean, they probably try to stamp out competition, but that act of competing I guess is the better interpretation of the word.

Once again, you're mistaking the human condition for human conditioning.

Teaching facts isn't forcing beliefs. Teaching religion is forcing beliefs.


It's true that mental health is important, and I would lump what a lot of people consider spiritual health in with mental health. I don't think tolerance of religions is at all related to mental health. I think happiness is really the core of that, and almost all of it. If you're happy, very little else matters.

I disagree that intelligence has no foundation. There are different types of intelligence, and my overarching usage of intelligence is most directly related to social intelligence, which is strongly tied to tolerance.

I disagree, if that's what you see than fine. But you're entire post is dismissive of people different than yourself. If you have spirituality, and believe in or support religion, then I think you should accept all other religions which have the heart of your religion as good. But there are terrible religions out there. There are terrible interpretations of popular religions. There are terrible interpretations of pieces of popular religions. These things add a lot of intolerance and hate to these religions, and while you might not get that out of the book, I'm sure the you'll agree that the god hates **** kids and parents did.

So like I said, maybe the religions you like, or your sense of spirituality jives with what you've gathered from several religions, however, that doesn't mean the same applies to others. There are several people who think you're a worthless piece of **** because you're not going to be around in the afterlife. So you're just nothing. There's a lot of insane beliefs with religion and ignoring that and acting like everything will be peachy if we're just tolerant is foolish. Teaching religious tolerance isn't going to change intolerant interpretations of religion.

I agree that we have a ridiculous amount of indoctrination and conditioning in this world, and it's terrible harmful to our society.

I don't think you have to have a religion being non religious. Maybe you have strong beliefs about democracy, but it's not a religion, though it may be preached or inscribed as though it was. Having beliefs about the world or the way it should be doesn't make you religious, having beliefs means you're human, basing them on an old book or tradition is part of what makes those beliefs poor enough to be considered a religion.

You could say that your ethos on life is your religion, but it's so different that I don't think that stance holds any merit.

First thing I have to say here is that chimps make wars too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0kuMS-EATs
Jane Goodall was the first to observe chimp wars.
Look at 1:03, what a shame.

Though, her methods were unusual, so she was criticized.

More recent is John Mitani's research on chimps.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/22/science/22chimp.html

full report here
http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...2810%2900459-8

We share a common ancestor, so it's not unusual that we make wars too.

I think solution to world peace is to think rationally, accept the "dark" part of our nature also and move on.
I think world peace is not possible, but we can learn to cooperate more, though.

I think religion is to blame for us thinking in terms right and wrong and that we are evil sinners that make wars and rape, murder, hate...
Imo, we're not evil/good, just human.

EDIT:
also relevant:
Milgram experiment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
(wiki article is only summary, reliable info is found under notes and references)

What if aspects of a religion/s is a hinderance to the goal of world peace. It remains the question of whether it would be better to combat there beliefs or cope with them. You argue we should cope/tolerate them. Well obviously we can't fully tolerate all of them so were stuck asking how much to tolerate. You seem to vaguely be saying it is a better strategy to be more tolerable. Some might argue it would be better to be less tolerable perhaps even shaming people for there silly beliefs (might cause a rise in atheism, leading to a more peaceful society?)

Do you believe religion is a net positive in reducing conflict?

I think awareness can be useful, just like it would be useful to be aware that some people have a narcissistic disorder. I say that because dealing with a narcissist requires understanding that this person may have different punishment reward system that they base there code of conduct on (much like religion).

I agree that people are highly conditioned to think that things can't be changed for the better/won't be changed for the better.

I disagree with your approach to fixing this however. Tolerance of old outdated traditions, and religions, if anything, will contribute to this problem.

What can, and will help this problem is increased scientific interest and awareness among the general populace - rather than the current fixation on the useless charade that is - politics/everything public sector-related.

Most sort of democratic or atheist types agree there is no solution, 'religous' people have there own solution. We should entertain it just in case I think.

Yes thats a belief, and I somewhat agree with it. But It obv still leaves the issue of people who's belief is to impose on others freedoms. But I think a lot of these kinds of people would at least entertain the idea of learning about others. Isn't it to easy to hate someone you don't know? Isn't that how we perpetuate war?


See this goes back to what is intelligence, because for what I'm saying intelligence is very related to seeing the world as a whole, not some spirtual mumbo but seeing 'they' are conditioned people to just like us. Not all cultures would allow such teaching but certainly some of the 'democratic' free world country's would.


We could say all living things act this way, but perhaps humans are capable of more. And while we're talking about exploitable i think the nash solution of every one doing whats good for themselves and the group is the obvious solution that needs to be taught. Anyways i think the rest of your paragraph is just conditioning, but I have no proof yet just me saying to you.


yes its the daily way of living for most or all of the world. But we can't separate school, in the sense that we get around 12 years of survival and division crammed down our throat in every way, and told this is how the world works sink or swim. Does it not seems odd their are no classes on compassion?


Yes I have no proof against this but just pointing out I'm suggesting what you see as the human condition is your conditioning...but thats circles, I'm just making sure I'm being clear.


Some would argue facts are beliefs, but thats not important, the important thing is you can't force people to learn and thus open their eyes, However, most will be okay with seeing someone thing different and making up their own mind. Imagine there was a movement to put compassion classes in public schools...what radical group would have the courage or audacity to protest that publicly...it would look so bad on them in many countries and places around the world. Yet the free countries don't teach sharing past 1st grade.

Mental health would be an indirect benefit as many of the worlds incorrect (prejudice) beliefs and conflicts would begin to dissipate (if we agree religious awareness would work which we haven't). Its important we don't just mean tolerance we mean awareness, to connect people to learn about each other and not be afraid, formally as a subject or a goal in schools.


Yes we are somewhat agreeing here with different words, my point about intelligent could be that it can being anything you want it to be depending on how you slice it. In my other thread 'What is intelligence' i suggested if we staple 'tending towards good' to the definition it will cancel out the need to define what is good, and will make a giant positive change to the world.


As people become connected these religions will become harder and harder to keep. Kinda like north korea, if I understand it correctly they don't have the Internet, and even the Arab springs (I know they are not fully free), if they are connected they have a shot. It doesn't work for everyone but its a huge shift towards change.


Yes the only way for them to keep these beliefs is to segregate.


Yes and you choose which ones you believe are bad....we can even assume you're right, and I'm sure I agree with you mostly, but the moment you impose that on someone all is lost. But if you show them your beliefs in the interest of connecting then they can question their own beliefs which is what we want anyways. If you see I'll show you my belief but its right and we won't show you Muslim belief than you are preaching some form of censorship, which leads to corrupt thinking.

Yes we could say organized religion or whatever is further from the real religion, which is simply life with no doctrine, or something like that. But you don't get people and children in school to that understand that from segregation of any kind.

shortly after she suggested we don't need to live this way.

Thats a strange thing to say because most agree religion fuels our wars. I didn't read it all though (chimps notes next time please?) maybe they identified some religions with the monkeys. Although its not just religion that creates and sustains wars, sometimes blaming religion ignores politics economy etc (again just incorrect division and segmenting). Nonetheless those studies don't suggest its anything but natural for us to end war and conflict either. And evolution is a belief, I'm surprised religious people don't just say god created evolution, and god invented the past and it didn't happen but we find evidence of it because god said so.


I agree with you slightly, by accepting our dark parts I think you are suggesting it will always be there, but I think by accepting and addressing it we would then be able to change it. We have to say, we did this, it was wrong, it can change and it needs to change. Instead we invent infinite ways its not our fault and we can't do anything anyways. Even religions kind of say ignore the worlds problems put your faith in your god and you are free, braveheart did it to free scotland, joan of arc to free France (I don't actually know these stories). Christ on the cross etc. but none were actually freed in a daily living point of view (hope the sounded related.



Well even tending towards peace would help at this point.


agreed about everything except undecided about the just human part.

And different religions will answer that for you. I propose a new belief, that learning about peoples, purposefully, to understand them and promote awareness will dispel all hindrances. But its not really a belief. The religions that hinder world peace are ones that segment and divide. I guess I should say again not to get stuck on tolerance for allowing religions but also more awareness which really leads to understand things like these people were raised and conditioned this way, they aren't bad people. Are they dumb because they weren't taught well?


Yes some would argue that, but I will argue that they were conditioned all their life to believe that by their education system. And maybe it would cause a rise in atheism but do you think you can bring peace by censorship? I don't. We have a saying fight fire with fire, its never made sense to me. use water?

No I believe conflict comes from division and religion of any kinda facilitates that. But its not the only thing that does it.


Well if religion was a fundamental root of conflict (one of many but a big one) and we quelled it with awareness, this better world could deal with things like narcissism better. Religion isn't the only issue but its obv a big piece.

Funny that some don't. Maybe I'll cut and paste the opinions I like and tell myself I'm right.

Remember its awareness and understanding etc. too. The goal isn't to say everyone can be as radical as they want (although in an intelligent society people could be free to do as they please). The point is to show these different people are people too. How many nations fought in our history because they weren't allowed or able to know each other.

Well any awareness of course, but science vs religion is kinda what we want to dispel here. Science is religion, maybe to scientists the true religion. But we aren't worried about changing peoples beliefs yet, just trying to show each other 'they' are real people too.

Most people are pretty tolerant of other cultures here where I live in Australia. I'm not sure why you've got the impression that most people dehumanize others who are culturally different. Where abouts do you live? maybe your state/country or area of residence is just very intolerant?

Agree can't go wrong becoming less ignorant.
Agreed less ignorant.

Once again less ignorant. At the start I thought you were preposing we take on a more tolerable role vs religion, now I am thinking your just saying we need to be more understanding of religion, which I am pretty sure most people wouldn't disagree. (To get back on track) Unfortunately we still have a decision in front of us and I am curious off your opinion. The decision is off course should our effort be spent getting rid of religion or integrating our change around it, IOW tolerating it.
If using fire = effort spent getting rid of religion. and water = tolerating it, I am still not sold.
Shaming people into questioning and or changing there beliefs is not the same as censorship.

No religion that I know of claims it can create world peace by everyone subscribing to it. They claim that you can go to heaven, be a better person, whatever, but it doesn't extinguish the inherit "Sin" in man, or human nature as we call it.

I don't agree that it's easy to hate someone you don't know, though maybe it is. I don't think that's how we perpetuate war. If you're saying it's easier to kill people you don't have to see, then sure. If every American magically had to see all the faces of the dead every day, then sure war might not exist. But that's all in magical hypothetical land.

My paragraph is not conditioning, perhaps you missed my point, though I guess it was subtle. The world doesn't have enough resources for everyone, some people have to get the shaft. Because of this, people will have wants that they cannot fulfill, and others will exploit people to maintain their own life. This cannot change during our foreseeable lifetime, but even if it did there's a lot of conflict leftover. That's the biggest impediment that we can change to bring the world closer to peace, but it can never truly be at a state of "World Peace", I would argue that a considerable amount of people don't even want a world like that.

No, it doesn't seem odd. I admit that school is terribly designed not to create smart people, compassionate people, or knowledgeable people, it's just a group of classes some morons think are important. There are much more important things that could be taught, but it's not happening. Welcome to the world, things suck and they're not going to change overnight, conflict cannot be snuffed out in our lifetime.

There were a lot of compassion movements, they all smoked out. Who would argue against it? Everyone, we're like 17th in the world when it comes to teaching, we don't have time to teach things like that as mandatory classes. We as a people don't care enough to make a fuss for it, and if we did our terrible positioning would push people towards arguing for more robotic teaching.

I don't disagree that the more people know, the more connected they are with various other people the better off they should be as a whole. But I don't think religion is the sticking point where people need to be nice in order to create a better world. It's towards each other. Religion has nothing to do with it. (Deserves got nothing to do with it)

Agreed, but I don't think connectivity and awareness/acceptance of terrible religious beliefs is the solution. Connectivity, awareness and acceptance of people is a big part of it, religion is something that just needs to be burned off like a leech.

So you're saying that we can't impose the idea of wrong or right on anyone else. Rapists, murderers and thieves are all people, and that's all that matters? How about the Muslim views on women? What about White Supremacists and people who support slavery?

If you want to say all that stuff is fine, then ok, no more need to talk. If you think that's all terrible stuff, obviously it's wrong, and we're not wrong to believe that it's wrong, then perhaps we have a starting point. It seems that you want to argue that everything is a belief and nothing is right or wrong.

I have never said I support segregation of any kind. I abhor the notion, and I think Americas strongest feature is our immigrant base. The mixing of genes is the most powerful hope for the future a country can have.

I live in Canada

We talk a lot about being multicultural. If I suggested to my friends they are racist they would get upset with me. Yet they know nothing of the world. They fear Muslims. They fear cultures from the middle east, they fear learning about Iran, Iraq, Israel. They fear people who live different than the 'American' or democratic way. They have opinions and their minds are made up yet they know nothing of the world. They are the average Canadians. They believe this is 'their' land, yet we are all immigrants to the native american which we wiped out and slaughtered in mass genocide, and we complain when they protest. ' Learn our f@cking language' they say to people with an accent, go back to your own country, but this isn't actually white mans country in the first place.

In my country we have a problem with gangs and violence because Canadians don't befriend different ethnic groups, and those groups are forced to stick together for survival.

I don't know too much about Australia but I'd guess its very much the same. Canadians are taught they are free, intelligent, and tolerant. My friends will not talk about the Arab spring, its foreign and unnerving to them.

In Canada our job in the world is to be ignorant here, to live our lives like we are the model country, and vacation in places in the world we can exploit like Thailand. Our hard earned dollars go towards turning young boys into girls. Thai people aren't real people to Canadians, just hand job machines.