I appreciate the insight fellas.

Let me post just one last hypothetical on the matter:

Say you're a Syrian. Now Bashar Assad is killing people. Maybe he killed someone in your family. But his existence is resulting in the suffering of your people. You know that the only reason he is in power and able to continue to commit the atrocities he is committing is because of the support he has of a few. You really wouldn't have second thoughts about being friends with someone who supported him? Really?

I feel that the only reason that religion or any other ideology has the power it has is because it is socially acceptable to support that ideology. I think modern times has seen this play out with racism: I think it has become close to the point now that admitting to supporting racism has become socially unacceptable to the point that you are outcast from the majority of society if you express racist views in public; and this is a good thing, as it has had a dampening effect on the power that racism has historically had.

I worked with some Mormons over the summer, and I just thought to myself how can I be friends with someone that is in favor of hurting my friends' families?

Haha, no. I am religious and I post here, but I do not get trolled. Because I'm not a bad poster.

I agree with what Ace said. The idea isn't that all humans are as bad as they can be but that all are fallen and deserving God's condemnation. Everything we do, even our humanly best, is contaminated by sin so that it is impossible to please God or keep any moral law.

I don't think it's possible to be saved unless someone has at least a minimal understanding of this, agrees with it relative to themselves, and repents, seeking God's forgiveness. That is the essence of the gospel.

Hey, that was post 10,000. If I was Monk I woulda stopped there.

I was mentioned in 10k. We are forever linked.

But it is welcomed by Hitler, murderers, and adulterers.

I would be wary of someone like notready claiming christians say this and christians do that. If he is an elected spokesperson of some sect I apologize though. As Dominic said any religion or institution can have good or bad people. This has gone on since recorded time in all locations long before the religions at issue today even started.

But I do agree with some of the other points in this thread. It would probably be immoral to be friends with Hitler, murderers, KKK members, hypocritical democrats and republicans, and Syrian warlords. If that was your situation an immoral christian friend (assuming he or she has potential not to be evil or derive their lack of perceived morality from willful ignorance) might start looking like more of a viable option for you.

Just a bad Christian/Jew/Muslim or whatever. Your atheist pals in here tell you that the bad things you do are "moral".

You really think Hitler was a Christian? Even nominally?

Wow, I can't believe you are really taking that line of reasoning. Really?

You guys are missing his point. Hitler, murderers, and adulterers would be happy to be judged the same as the rest of us who have felt lust or hate. They would welcome Gods bizarre justices system.

Think thats it anyways.

(Not sure about the Hitler part)

I don't really have a problem with DS' comments. As Batair said, people who sin greatly will appreciate and welcome God's grace. I don't see a problem with this. The gospel is scandalous for this reason. People who sin gravely get the same divine grace and acceptance as the "goody two shoes" crowd.

Everyone needs God's grace but the adulterers and muderers might realize they need it more and on a deeper level than the "goody two shoes" crowd.

They dont need it more, there is no curve.

I don't really understand in what way Hitler's preferred mode of personal morality was similar to the Sermon on the Mount, but I'm not a historian. Perhaps others will elaborate

I do think it's worth making the point that if you read that section of the gospels, it's not talking at all about moral standards that you apply to other people, only about how we should reflect on our own conduct. Judge others not at all, but be stringent with yourself.

And as far as the "perfect" comment, it's not even directly talking about those moral standards of conduct at all, but about how we treat others:

I'm having trouble relating this to Hitler

Maybe I should clarify in saying heinous sinners realize their need for God's grace more than "good" people.

There is no sin curve, but there is a perceived sin cruve because naturally humans classify some sin as worse than others.

IMO God also sees some sins as worse than others (probably controversial but w/e)

IMO God sees the condition of being "in sin" ie seperated from God as equal over all of humanity.

In other words even if one lives a clean life one is still living independently from God and therefore existing in a sinful state.

I would also consider myself anti-religion but for the most part it's the Catholic Church and other religious institutions that give Christianity a bad rap imo.

Religion and how people decide to misinterpret certain religious texts for their own ends are two different things. Even though I don't share Christians' belief concerning Jesus , I wouldn't consciously refuse to befriend someone simply because they're Christian.

Believe it or not but many Christians don't take the Bible as literally as you might think , for them , the message is what's important and I can't really hate someone for that.

Obviously if I meet someone who thinks because I like to smoke some herb or do a few lines once in a while then I'm going to burn in eternal hellfire unless I repent my sins .. I wouldn't want to spend any time with a person like that.

Grouping all Christians together is just wrong.

If they realized their need they wouldn't be "heinous sinners".

No. But why was marking on a "curve" (not a true curve since that would imply that terrible sinners could still get a good grade if others were worse) OK during the initial era of Jews?

As bunny says, who are we to consider this scandolous. But we do have the right to do something else. Namely be skeptical that it is the truth considering how many miscreants would benefit from its invention.

There is no controversy about this. God is just so of course some sins are worse than others. Indeed some sins are mortal sins eg in Islam murder is considered to be a mortal sin.

Then why bring him up?

I don't know what this means.

I mentioned Hitler just to be symmetrical with your post. The rest of my point I will explain better soon in a separate thread.