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Old 12-25-2012, 04:31 PM   #31
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Re: Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

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Originally Posted by asdfasdf32 View Post
Sure, it's going to have an effect. But basing all my actions on the misapplied moral judgements of my neighbor is a poor way to live your life. In other words, if my neighbor thinks eating Skittles means I support slavery doesn't mean I should have to stop eating Skittles.
It's not about your neighbors moral actions, it's about your own. And what moral considerations one has to consider for oneself, when choosing to be in the company of the immoral.



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I'd say that, generally, you're more likely to change their views as their friend. Based on anecdotal evidence, of course.
Well there you go.

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You still haven't explained how being a Christian means you "accept" the evil acts sometimes associated with other Christians.
I don't think its about accepting the evil acts of other Christians, it's about accepting the evil in the teachings of Christianity, and accepting the evil that has come and continues to come about due to the existence of religion.

Last edited by Hector Cerif; 12-25-2012 at 04:38 PM.
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Old 12-25-2012, 04:39 PM   #32
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Re: Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

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Originally Posted by Acemanhattan View Post
So you are suggesting that if one was to successfully act out the message of Christ and the disciples that it would look to the world like evil? I've never heard anyone say this before.

What is the difference between Hitler's type of evil and the Christian type of evil you're aiming at? I'm pretty sure that when you try to answer that question you'll realize that you aren't using "evil" in the same way the OP is, nor in the way anyone else does.
Part of the primary message Christians have for the world is that everyone is guilty of sin. We are not born "good". This idea is totally foreign to the fallen nature. The world judges on the curve - my good deeds outweigh my bad deeds, I'm not as bad as Hitler, etc. Christianity says God judges on the basis of perfection ("You must be perfect as my heavenly Father is perfect") -if you lust for a woman you are as guilty as if you had committed adultery, if you hate someone you are as guilty as if you had murdered him. This message is not welcomed by the world.
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Old 12-25-2012, 04:55 PM   #33
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Re: Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

I think OP is being too black/white. Christianity, while certainly full of immoral/evil/not very nice people who do bad things, is not, in and of itself, an evil or even bad institution.

One could argue that the teachings of Jesus are mostly, if not, completely, good, just, and for the betterment of humanity.

It's only when imperfect people decide to use Christianity - or any religion - for their own purposes that the tenets of that religion might be used for immoral purposes.

Are there certain tenets of Christianity that I disagree with? Sure - but that doesn't make it evil.

Being a Christian might mean someone is evil. But it might also mean that person is moral and just. Or just human and capable of bad deeds, like most of us are.

"Love thy neighbor" is certainly not an ideal that is unique to Christianity, but at least most Christians are trying to be moral, ethical people. Are they sometimes mislead, prejudicial, and ignorant? Yes. But that is not unique to Christianity, either.

For the record, I'm about as anti-religion as you can get. But I don't immediately assume a follower of Christ - or Muhammad or Buddha - to be evil. We just have different views and we can usually come to some kind of common agreement on most things.
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Old 12-25-2012, 04:57 PM   #34
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Re: Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

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Originally Posted by Hector Cerif View Post
<snip>

So is passive acceptance (failing to react affirmatively or negatively) to an input (anothers moral actions) have a moral consideration of its own?
Again though, I disagree that can say someone is passively accepting an act by mere function of their association with someone who committed said act.

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Originally Posted by Hector Cerif View Post
It's not about your neighbors moral actions, it's about your own. And what moral considerations one has to consider for oneself, when choosing to be in the company of the immoral.
I don't think there are any moral considerations that aren't based on the misapplied moral judgements of my neighbors when choosing to be in the company of the immoral.

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Well there you go.
Glad I could help.

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I don't think its about accepting the evil acts of other Christians, it's about accepting the evil in the teachings of Christianity, and accepting the evil that has come and continues to come about due to the existence of religion.
The way you're using "accept" here is pretty disingenuous and is in no way an accurate representation of a typical Christian's view on evil as it relates to their religion.
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Old 12-25-2012, 05:33 PM   #35
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Re: Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

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Originally Posted by Dominic View Post
I think OP is being too black/white. Christianity, while certainly full of immoral/evil/not very nice people who do bad things, is not, in and of itself, an evil or even bad institution.

One could argue that the teachings of Jesus are mostly, if not, completely, good, just, and for the betterment of humanity.

It's only when imperfect people decide to use Christianity - or any religion - for their own purposes that the tenets of that religion might be used for immoral purposes.

Are there certain tenets of Christianity that I disagree with? Sure - but that doesn't make it evil.

Being a Christian might mean someone is evil. But it might also mean that person is moral and just. Or just human and capable of bad deeds, like most of us are.

"Love thy neighbor" is certainly not an ideal that is unique to Christianity, but at least most Christians are trying to be moral, ethical people. Are they sometimes mislead, prejudicial, and ignorant? Yes. But that is not unique to Christianity, either.

For the record, I'm about as anti-religion as you can get. But I don't immediately assume a follower of Christ - or Muhammad or Buddha - to be evil. We just have different views and we can usually come to some kind of common agreement on most things.
Op says that "morality shouldn't come from willful ignorance."

Op dodged my other questions.

But this quoted post answers mine and his. This is very well phrased and should pacify the op's hackneyed attack.
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Old 12-25-2012, 09:29 PM   #36
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Re: Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

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Part of the primary message Christians have for the world is that everyone is guilty of sin. We are not born "good". This idea is totally foreign to the fallen nature. The world judges on the curve - my good deeds outweigh my bad deeds, I'm not as bad as Hitler, etc. Christianity says God judges on the basis of perfection ("You must be perfect as my heavenly Father is perfect") -if you lust for a woman you are as guilty as if you had committed adultery, if you hate someone you are as guilty as if you had murdered him. This message is not welcomed by the world.
This seems somewhat diluted from the original message of Yeshua HaMashiach. Simply, the Ruach HaKodesh ( =Spirit of Truth ) convicts the world of sin.

Unfortunately, Roman Catholicism is so far from what Yeshua and his talmidim="disciples" actually taught, the "Church of Roman-ism" may as well be considered apostate. Sects of Protestantism are often not much better; at least the Orthodox branch are on the "correct" side of the filioque clause and many members fast regularly on the days according to the Didache ("Apostles Teaching" ). Rather than hold to any institutional statement of beliefs, it's better to stick close to Yeshua's intended message.

Closer to what Yeshua said about the world is that not only is the world guilty of sin, but those that are of the world has Hasatan ("Satan") as their father and cannot bear the truth of Yeshua's words. Unless a person repents, that person is in danger of eternal damnation; however, if that person repents and trusts in and follows the words of Yeshua as the Messiah, he/she will have eternal life.

Not only is virtually every human being is guilty of "sin", but "totally depraved". Almost any mature human being can readily see that by simply recording all of one's actions and thoughts for just a week and examining the record for himself/herself; or bring the record to a tzaddik ( = a "righteous person" ) to see how really far off the mark from perfection a human being is. Quite apt is the passage: "For G-d so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life. G-d did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through him. He who believes in him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of G-d. This is the verdict: that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in G-d."

About so-called "righteous deeds" performed without following the will of "G-d", Isaiah 64:6 ( referring to Israelites that strayed away from Hashem = "G-d") seems dead on the mark: all these "righteous deeds" are nothing but "filthy rags" and technically, the term literally means menstrual cloth/rag. Without trusting in Yeshua/YHWH Elohim, a human being is incapable of doing anything truly good; what seems "good" to fallen humanity can be "abominable" to the Holy One of Israel. Without repentance, a human being effectively receives the same destination as Hitler; after all, what can the perfectly good Creator do with a spiritual being who "sins"? Here is what Paul Washer stated about unrepentant human beings without "G-d": "You've done nothing but sin!"

I like what you've posted concerning perfection. Just as an added thought: Cain slew Abel because evil hates righteousness; the world, spiritually dead in sin, hates those who live in righteousness.

There is something important Yeshua spoke of that should not be omitted: one ought to pray for one's human enemies, wishing the very best for them, even to the extent that they will hopefully become sons and daughters of the Living "G-d".
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Old 12-25-2012, 11:15 PM   #37
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Re: Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

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Originally Posted by NotReady View Post
Part of the primary message Christians have for the world is that everyone is guilty of sin. We are not born "good". This idea is totally foreign to the fallen nature. The world judges on the curve - my good deeds outweigh my bad deeds, I'm not as bad as Hitler, etc. Christianity says God judges on the basis of perfection ("You must be perfect as my heavenly Father is perfect") -if you lust for a woman you are as guilty as if you had committed adultery, if you hate someone you are as guilty as if you had murdered him. This message is not welcomed by the world.
Ya, but being unwelcome or obnoxious is not the same as being evil. Westboro Baptist: Evil. The rest of you: not even close.
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Old 12-26-2012, 12:09 AM   #38
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Re: Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

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Ya, but being unwelcome or obnoxious is not the same as being evil. Westboro Baptist: Evil. The rest of you: not even close.
Of course, my job isn't to get you to think I'm evil. It's to get you to think that YOU'RE evil. If that is obnoxious to you then at least I'm in the ballpark.
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Old 12-26-2012, 12:16 AM   #39
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Re: Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

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Of course, my job isn't to get you to think I'm evil. It's to get you to think that YOU'RE evil. If that is obnoxious to you then at least I'm in the ballpark.
I'm going to ask for some of the other Christians to chime in here, because your phrasing seems rather...unique. I don't think (according to Christian theology) that because humans are sinful dictates that they are evil.
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Old 12-26-2012, 12:56 AM   #40
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Re: Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

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I'm going to ask for some of the other Christians to chime in here, because your phrasing seems rather...unique. I don't think (according to Christian theology) that because humans are sinful dictates that they are evil.
His phrasing doesn't seem unique to me on that point, I seem to remember some scripture that talks about the depravity and, maybe more to the point, the "wickedness" of unregenerate men. Additionally I remember some references to every desire in mans heart being for evil.
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Old 12-26-2012, 01:00 AM   #41
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Re: Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

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Of course, my job isn't to get you to think I'm evil. It's to get you to think that YOU'RE evil. If that is obnoxious to you then at least I'm in the ballpark.
Oh yes, of course. Standard operating procedure really. I just thought your initial response to this statement:

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I believe Christianity (and religion in general) to be evil in content and action
to the effect that you wouldn't feel you had done your job as a Christian if an atheist didn't feel this way about you was an unusual line to toe. It seems after further conversation though that you aren't suggesting what I thought you were.
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Old 12-26-2012, 01:00 AM   #42
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Re: Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

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His phrasing doesn't seem unique to me on that point, I seem to remember some scripture that talks about the depravity and, maybe more to the point, the "wickedness" of unregenerate men. Additionally I remember some references to every desire in mans heart being for evil.
Sure, I would agree. However, I feel there's quite the step upwards from being sinful, or wicked, or even having evil desires, to actually *being* evil.
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Old 12-26-2012, 01:11 AM   #43
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Re: Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

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Sure, I would agree. However, I feel there's quite the step upwards from being sinful, or wicked, or even having evil desires, to actually *being* evil.
Even when I was a Christian reflecting on my "sin nature" prior to becoming a Christian I generally accepted the idea that I was once "evil" and an "enemy to God". I certainly acknowledged that my kind of evil manifested itself differently than a murderer, rapist, etc. and that they were (if possible) more "evil" than myself, but I also generally accepted that the distinctions in types of evil were human distinctions (though I was certain God could see the difference too) and that anyone who was living outside of a relationship with Christ was, in God's view, all pretty much equal. It seemed to me that the definition of evil was any thing opposed to God.

I think the standard Christian line would be that we have all sinned and fallen short and that therefore we are all evil. Also that the distinction between degrees of evil was irrelevant on God's view.
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Old 12-26-2012, 02:56 AM   #44
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Re: Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

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I'm going to ask for some of the other Christians to chime in here, because your phrasing seems rather...unique. I don't think (according to Christian theology) that because humans are sinful dictates that they are evil.
I don't think its fair to say all humans are evil full stop. This is oversimplifying human nature in its current state. All humans are made in the image of God. Being made in the image of God by default gives us some inherent "goodness". I will avoid being specific here because it will get sticky. Conversely, all humans live with the sin nature since the fall of man. Therefore all humans have some inherent "badness".

It gets more complicated when you add Christianity and being filled with the Holy Spirit so we can leave that out for now.

All people are born with a propensity and tendency toward evil. When I say evil here I don't mean mass murder. I am referring to evil as compared to God's perfection and holiness. We need to teach our kids from toddlers to share, no one needs to teach their kids to be selfish. I would consider even the selfishness of a toddler to be evidence of the sin nature.

edit: In regards to word choice it may be more accurate to say people are sinful rather than evil. Without doing any intensive word study here it seems evil may be too strong of a term. I think when people use strong words like "evil" it is more about comparing our own moral state to God's holiness. How good or bad we are is all relative in who we compare ourselves too. Therefore even an average Joe nice guy may be considered evil when lined up next to God's holiness. I am not saying "evil" is the best word choice but just trying to explain why some people may opt for such strong language

Last edited by LEMONZEST; 12-26-2012 at 03:03 AM.
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Old 12-26-2012, 03:10 AM   #45
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Re: Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

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I think OP is being too black/white. Christianity, while certainly full of immoral/evil/not very nice people who do bad things, is not, in and of itself, an evil or even bad institution.

One could argue that the teachings of Jesus are mostly, if not, completely, good, just, and for the betterment of humanity.

It's only when imperfect people decide to use Christianity - or any religion - for their own purposes that the tenets of that religion might be used for immoral purposes.

Are there certain tenets of Christianity that I disagree with? Sure - but that doesn't make it evil.

Being a Christian might mean someone is evil. But it might also mean that person is moral and just. Or just human and capable of bad deeds, like most of us are.

"Love thy neighbor" is certainly not an ideal that is unique to Christianity, but at least most Christians are trying to be moral, ethical people. Are they sometimes mislead, prejudicial, and ignorant? Yes. But that is not unique to Christianity, either.

For the record, I'm about as anti-religion as you can get. But I don't immediately assume a follower of Christ - or Muhammad or Buddha - to be evil. We just have different views and we can usually come to some kind of common agreement on most things.
Thanks Dominic for saving me the keystrokes. Really want to +1 this.
OP what parts of Christianity do you find offensive?

I will touch on the most controversial issues here:

1. Homosexuality
2. Abortion

Standard Christian view is that homosexuality and abortion are wrong. But what else does Christianity teach? Christ instructs us not to judge other lest we ourselves be judged. In addition, Christ instructs us to love our enemies.

Therefore if you are dealing with "real" Christians they should be non-judgemental and they should be loving even if you are living a horrible/sinful life according to them.
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