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Old 12-24-2012, 04:29 PM   #1
Hector Cerif
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Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

HI!

So the thread title is pretty self explanatory. I believe Christianity (and religion in general) to be evil in content and action, and am wondering if associating with someone who supports such an evil institution would be immoral on my part; or if I should try and be the change and such and be a good influence on them etc.

Same goes for KKK members or republicans or whatever institutional associations a human might have.
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Old 12-24-2012, 05:12 PM   #2
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Re: Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

No, you silly goose.
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Old 12-24-2012, 06:45 PM   #3
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Re: Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hector Cerif View Post
believe Christianity (and religion in general) to be evil
John 13:34-35
King James Version (KJV)
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
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Old 12-24-2012, 07:06 PM   #4
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Re: Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

This forum must have the highest % of trolls of any forum on the internet.
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Old 12-24-2012, 07:11 PM   #5
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Re: Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

Pretty sure the OP isn't trolling...
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Old 12-24-2012, 07:13 PM   #6
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Re: Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hector Cerif View Post
HI!

So the thread title is pretty self explanatory. I believe Christianity (and religion in general) to be evil in content and action, and am wondering if associating with someone who supports such an evil institution would be immoral on my part; or if I should try and be the change and such and be a good influence on them etc.

Same goes for KKK members or republicans or whatever institutional associations a human might have.
How do you define a Christian?

What words attributed to Jesus do you deem evil?

What good influence are you going to provide?

Republican affiliated people are automatically more evil than any other person affiliated with a political party?

There are thousands of religions, political parties, and institutional associations. Your focus on common targets perhaps indicates that you also might be placed in a typical large subset. I suggest you analyze what you would interpret to be the opposite of your stated classifications to further work out whatever point you are trying to get at.
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Old 12-24-2012, 07:16 PM   #7
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Re: Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

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Pretty sure the OP isn't trolling...
he probably is not trolling. and even if he was there are people that often say similar things with sincerity. a self righteous person who takes a literal view of the old testament could be counted just as odd.
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Old 12-24-2012, 07:32 PM   #8
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Re: Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hector Cerif View Post
HI!

So the thread title is pretty self explanatory. I believe Christianity (and religion in general) to be evil in content and action, and am wondering if associating with someone who supports such an evil institution would be immoral on my part; or if I should try and be the change and such and be a good influence on them etc.

Same goes for KKK members or republicans or whatever institutional associations a human might have.
How do you define "morality"? How do you define "evil"?

If you define those terms well, you will probably have your answer.
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Old 12-24-2012, 07:45 PM   #9
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Re: Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

meh

it's like being friends with a fatty

makes you feel superior
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Old 12-24-2012, 08:30 PM   #10
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Re: Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

lol +1 to above post
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Old 12-25-2012, 02:09 AM   #11
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Re: Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hector Cerif View Post
HI!

So the thread title is pretty self explanatory. I believe Christianity (and religion in general) to be evil in content and action, and am wondering if associating with someone who supports such an evil institution would be immoral on my part; or if I should try and be the change and such and be a good influence on them etc.
If an atheist didn't feel that way about me I would consider I had not done my job as a Christian. After all, according to those great humanitarians, the Romans, we are enemies of the human race.
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Old 12-25-2012, 02:32 AM   #12
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Re: Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

Better to be "enemies of the human race" than to be the "enemy of G-d". James the Just ( the traditional attribution of the letter of James is to him ) states in James 4:4..."friendship with the world means enmity against G-d."
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Old 12-25-2012, 03:08 AM   #13
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Re: Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

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If an atheist didn't feel that way about me I would consider I had not done my job as a Christian. After all, according to those great humanitarians, the Romans, we are enemies of the human race.
I don't feel that way about you.
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Old 12-25-2012, 12:14 PM   #14
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Re: Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

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I don't feel that way about you.
I'm not the best messenger.
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Old 12-25-2012, 02:31 PM   #15
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Re: Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

Some times I feel by associating with certain types of people, I am endorsing or enabling their beliefs.

Say you were friends with a racist -- good person except he thinks whites are superior, and maybe donates money to the kkk -- does that in any way validate his belief structure? Can he only go on supporting his dogma because there are people like you that find it morally acceptable to associate with him?

Surely it reflects poorly on you (which isn't to say much of its morality). I know I would look at someone differently if one of their friends were morally culpable.

Last edited by Hector Cerif; 12-25-2012 at 02:42 PM.
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Old 12-25-2012, 02:37 PM   #16
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Re: Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jedibo View Post
How do you define a Christian?

What words attributed to Jesus do you deem evil?

What good influence are you going to provide?

Republican affiliated people are automatically more evil than any other person affiliated with a political party?

There are thousands of religions, political parties, and institutional associations. Your focus on common targets perhaps indicates that you also might be placed in a typical large subset. I suggest you analyze what you would interpret to be the opposite of your stated classifications to further work out whatever point you are trying to get at.
That morality shouldn't come from willful ignorance.
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Old 12-25-2012, 02:41 PM   #17
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Re: Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

One last thought, and an explanation on where I'm coming from.

I remember when my mom and dad first got divorced, and my dad started going out on dates. He was at some festival thing in Boise when he meets this cute lady and they start chatting. It was going well till she asked where he lived. He said Nampa, and she said, "oh, I could never live in Nampa, there's too many Mexicans." My dad said, "sorry lady, I don't have time for racists," and left.

For some reason that story has always stayed with me, and I think it influences my perspective on issues like this.

I think by supporting a religion you are supporting all the results of religion; from crashing planes into buildings to denying equal rights under the law. And it is hard for me to look at someone who does that and say "lets be friends."
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Old 12-25-2012, 03:11 PM   #18
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Re: Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hector Cerif
I think by supporting a religion you are supporting all the results of religion; from crashing planes into buildings to denying equal rights under the law. And it is hard for me to look at someone who does that and say "lets be friends."
Not even close to being true.

You support your government. Do you support all the results of your government? You support your family. Do you support all the results of your family?
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Old 12-25-2012, 03:38 PM   #19
Hector Cerif
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Re: Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

Saying I support my government is a little extreme. I support some aspects of my government for sure, but I don't know that I would personally say I support my government.

Also, interesting examples because your government and your family are two things that you don't choose, so what you think about them is slightly irrelevant. I think judging someone based on their government or their family is slightly ****ed up, but judging someone based on the friends they keep is logical.
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Old 12-25-2012, 03:54 PM   #20
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Re: Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

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Originally Posted by Hector Cerif View Post
Saying I support my government is a little extreme. I support some aspects of my government for sure, but I don't know that I would personally say I support my government.
Fine. We could change it to "I support the men and women who serve to protect our country", which obviously doesn't mean that you support everything they do.

Quote:
Also, interesting examples because your government and your family are two things that you don't choose, so what you think about them is slightly irrelevant.
Again, fine. Change it to your spouse. (I'm unfamiliar with your views on morality, so I cannot give an appropriate corresponding example.)

Quote:
I think judging someone based on their government or their family is slightly ****ed up, but judging someone based on the friends they keep is logical.
As a hypothetical, let's say you discover I'm close friends with Charles Manson. Given only this, what judgements can be made about me, my moral outlook or moral transgressions?
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Old 12-25-2012, 04:00 PM   #21
Hector Cerif
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Re: Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

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Fine. We could change it to "I support the men and women who serve to protect our country", which obviously doesn't mean that you support everything they do.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/41...roops-1223182/



Quote:
Again, fine. Change it to your spouse. (I'm unfamiliar with your views on morality, so I cannot give an appropriate corresponding example.)
Not sure what you're saying, I wouldn't marry a racist or a christian.


Quote:
As a hypothetical, let's say you discover I'm close friends with Charles Manson. Given only this, what judgements can be made about me, my moral outlook or moral transgressions?
Good question, I don't know. I feel like maybe Charles Manson (or anyone like him) is a special case, because he is insane. So if you are spending time with him after work or whatever that might be charitable on your part.

But if you said to me, "I really like Charles Manson, I think he's a really good guy, we're really close friends," then yeah, I'd probably look at you a little funny.

Do you think that people shouldn't make character judgments based on your friendship with Charles Manson?

Last edited by Hector Cerif; 12-25-2012 at 04:05 PM.
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Old 12-25-2012, 04:20 PM   #22
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Re: Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

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Originally Posted by Hector Cerif View Post
I'll give a read later today.

Quote:
Not sure what you're saying, I wouldn't marry a racist or a christian.
But you would, I'm assuming, marry her if she was friends with a racist. (Assume that you never meet said racist) Which, given your views that "association= impropriety", this is immoral. So you are being inconsistent.

Suicide Bomber-->Christian-->You
Racist-->Wife-->You

(Feel free to change racist for some other immoral act if you're not comfortable with that one.)

Quote:
Good question, I don't know. I feel like maybe Charles Manson (or anyone like him) is a special case, because he is insane. So if you are spending time with him after work or whatever that might be charitable on your part.
Ugh. You keep getting caught up in the specific examples for some reason. Feel free to exchange the person for someone who committed some minor moral transgression. [Again, examples are going to be difficult until I understand how you determining what is, and is not, moral.]

Quote:
But if you said to me, "I really like Charles Manson, I think he's a really good guy, we're really close friends," then yeah, I'd probably look at you a little funny.
So, "looking at me a little funny" amounts to a moral judgement?

Quote:
Do you think that people shouldn't make character judgments based on your friendship with Charles Manson?
It's going to depend on how you're using "should" here. Making an overarching, quick judgement will almost certainly be a useful heuristic, but that doesn't mean it's an accurate one. In other words, you can make no accurate assessments about my character that are not directly affected by the friendship, i.e. you can probably ascertain that I don't consider friendship as something which implicitly supports that person's immoral acts (or at the very least, that I don't care), but that's about it.

Last edited by asdfasdf32; 12-25-2012 at 04:32 PM.
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Old 12-25-2012, 04:32 PM   #23
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Re: Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

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But you would, I'm assuming, marry her if she was friends with a racist. (Assume that you never meet said racist) Which, given your views that "association= impropriety", this is immoral. So you are being inconsistent.

Suicide Bomber-->Christian-->You
Racist-->Wife-->You

(Feel free to change racist for some other immoral act if you're not comfortable with that one.)
Good point. I suppose it would depend on what kind of friend she was (determining whether or not I would marry someone who was friends with a racist). If my potential wife and her friends were childhood buddies then I wouldn't judge her, but if she just chose to associate with racists then I probably wouldn't marry her.


Quote:
Ugh. You keep getting caught up in the specific examples for some reason. Feel free to exchange the person for someone who committed some minor moral transgression. [Again, examples are going to be difficult until I understand how you determining what is, and is not, moral.]

I really don't understand why what I am saying is so controversial. The idea that you are judged by the company you keep is by no means new; so extrapolating the concept to include christians (if you believe christianity/religion to be immoral) should be logical.

I mean would you really show up with charles manson to a party? Lets say instead you were friends with a fundamentalist christian. Would you show up to a party with him, knowing that he would talk about christianity / gays going to hell or whatever?

If you showed up at a party with either of these people would you not expect the other guests to judge you for it?
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Old 12-25-2012, 04:33 PM   #24
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Re: Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

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Originally Posted by NotReady View Post
If an atheist didn't feel that way about me I would consider I had not done my job as a Christian. After all, according to those great humanitarians, the Romans, we are enemies of the human race.
So you are suggesting that if one was to successfully act out the message of Christ and the disciples that it would look to the world like evil? I've never heard anyone say this before.

What is the difference between Hitler's type of evil and the Christian type of evil you're aiming at? I'm pretty sure that when you try to answer that question you'll realize that you aren't using "evil" in the same way the OP is, nor in the way anyone else does.
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Old 12-25-2012, 04:45 PM   #25
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Re: Immoral to be friends with a Christian?

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Originally Posted by asdfasdf32 View Post
It's going to depend on how you're using "should" here. Making an overarching, quick judgement will almost certainly be a useful heuristic, but that doesn't mean it's an accurate one. In other words, you can make no accurate assessments about my character that are not directly affected by the friendship, i.e. you can probably ascertain that I don't consider friendship as something which implicitly supports that person's immoral acts (or at the very least, that I don't care), but that's about it.
Well it says that you think it is ok to associate with people of ill-repute. Which, fair or not, makes people think that you might be one of them (birds of a feather and what not).

Which is slightly irrelevant because what I'm talking about is morality.

The question is what message does it send to the person with different moral beliefs than you, that you are willing to share in there company?

Does this validate or enable this (according to you immoral) belief structure?

I find it hard to believe that this decision has no effect on the other person. The only question is is it better to be friends with that person and try and lead by example to get them to change there (according to you immoral) beliefs, or is it better to send a message that at least one person finds their beliefs unacceptable.

This is an "it is impossible to remain neutral on a moving train" type situation. I feel that passive acceptance is still enabling evil. The fact that the bible made no mention of the evils of slavery is still an act of evil even though it made no action.
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