To me, this is the kind of thing that makes religious people appear so dumb...

Lady gets hit by a broken bat at a ballgame. Reports are that the injury is life threatening. Baseball forums blow up with prayers and religious people calling on god to make her better.

One comment in particular: "May God bless her and heal her and bring her back home again".

How about if god simply prevented the bat from hitting her in the first place? Does that not occur to the religious? Or do they think they're prayers are going to supersede their almighty god's will? I know this sounds insulting if you're religious and the type who would offer such a comment, but it seems absurd to think that your prayers would matter after the god you're praying to allowed something like this to happen. And if you don't think your prayers matter, then why bother praying or making such a comment?

I don't begrudge anyone praying for this woman's recovery. But maybe keep it to yourself? Before saying things like this publicly try imagining just how ridiculous you sound to non believers.

Are you asking this because you are simply unaware of any answers to this question? Because the question of why suffering exists is a fairly core theological question that has been addressed for millenia. If you want to argue that accepting a role for suffering and accepting the efficacy of prayer is inherently contradictory you are going to have to work harder than posing a question.

And no, sounding ridiculous to nonbelievers is not a reason to hide your views in public.

But you really don't have to work any harder than asking this question. That's the point. If you think otherwise, then I have to ask why?

Why shouldn't sounding ridiculous and/or making an ass of yourself be reason enough to hide your views? Can you think of a better reason (that doesn't include violence)? Do you at least think if a view runs counter to logic that it should be ridiculed?

I feel like the part of my post that you didn't quote is the most important part. Namely, the question of suffering in a theistic world view isn't some big gotcha you discovered that hasn't been addressed before. However the problem of suffering, the problem of evil, are key theistic questions that have been tackled for millennia in most major religions. You seem to want to hold the view that it is fundamentally impossible to have such a resolution, and that you don't need to pay any attention to what the canon says in different religions, you can just dismiss all of it out of hand.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not letting theists off the hook here. If one wants to give a theological explanation for the world, absolutely an explanation for how suffering fits into that framework is necessary. And many of the explanations are quite bad. (Some are quite good: the ancient Greeks just believed their gods were spiteful and so forth which explains suffering rather tidily). But I reject your out of hand rejection of all possible frameworks for explaining suffering in theological terms.

If I restrained myself from ever publicly saying anything that didn't run the chance of a minority of people thinking it was ridiculous, I probably couldn't say much. Personally, I am more concerned with saying what I believe to be true, and what I believe to be beneficial to say (which is different), not what will minimize the potential for ridicule.

I didn't mean for my post to suggest that I made some never before thought of, discovery. I meant it to show my disgust for the mental gymnastics put on display by the religious any time a tragic event occurs.

Yeah, this is pretty much what I'm saying.

Then let's hear one that makes sense. Give me an example where it would be appropriate to praise someone who sat back and did nothing while watching your toddler saunter into the middle of a busy street. After getting hit by a speeding car, you plead with this person to deliver and/or administer medical care to your child. If your child survives, you will forever be grateful to the person. Never will it dawn on you that they could have simply stuck out their arm and prevented your child from running into the street in the first place. And if the child dies, you would have no hesitation about asking this person to look after your other child.

Give me an example where such a view makes any rational sense at all. Just get me close to understanding it.

I never said one should try and minimize ridicule. I suggested that dumb thoughts, beliefs, and mindless open prayer should be ridiculed.

Two questions.

First, are you saying that you have never read any explanation for the problem of evil that you think is possible? Because if there is a possible explanation, then your objection is not a firm conclusion but is only a belief. That puts you in the position of ridiculing a belief on the basis of your own belief. I doubt that is your goal but that might actually be the situation.

Second, why ridicule them here? There are few theists here and those who are here are not seeing anything new or disturbing in this post. Just an old horse that has been flogged to death. Perhaps you are trying to open a new thread to discuss the problem of evil? Maybe you have something new? If so, just say that and start the thread on that basis. It would be a lot more likely to get traction.

"Well, unintentional brain trauma is part of the randomness of life."

I've never read or heard a rationally acceptable explanation.

Of course there are possible explanations, but they require the suspension of logic. The same logic used by the same people in every other facet of their life. See my example of a kid running into the street.

My goal wasn't to disturb anyone, but to point out what disturbs me. And disturb is a good word to use. Not only does it insult me, but it disturbs me to know that I live among so many people who think like this. At best, they are apologists for an irrational premise. At worst, they are hypocrites who hold their god to different standards than their logic would allow in any other situation.

I think the problem of evil is different, because you can make a rational argument for god using the problem of evil. In fact, I know an extremely intelligent person (whom I have great respect for), who's sole reason for believing in a god is the problem of evil. I'm fine with that and I do not begrudge people their beliefs.

No. What I'm talking about is how stupid people sound while praying out loud. It's like the old saying: "Prayer... How to do nothing and still think you're helping". Or something like that. It's along the same lines when people thank god for their good fortune while others around them suffer a tragedy. Like some 55 year old dimwit who thinks god was watching over him while the tornado came through his neighborhood, while the 3 children next door were crushed under the roof of their home. I don't care if you believe in god or not... How the hell does one rationalize that?!?!


Again, I never intended to provoke anything new. I just posted after being profoundly disturbed over what I was reading from the majority of people posting on a public forum. People who seemed to assume that everyone else would agree with their irrational prayers to god. To be honest, it made me quite mad.

Some of this makes sense to me and some of it does not.

Taking your posts in reverse order, the last paragraph is just a pointless tilt imo. People believe things that are not necessarily universal. Sometimes they will post those things on public forums. There are dozens of posts on this forum that criticize in blanket terms the intelligence and logical capacity of theists. I have little doubt that I am smarter and more logical than the majority of those posters, if for no other reason than the smarter atheists do not make blanket statements like that. Should I get quite mad about that? Best to just let it go.

For the most part those posts in the case of the baseball bat injury are expressions of sympathy by people who would love to do something but cannot. The comment basically says that they empathize and that they are doing all that they can to help, which is true. For all you know those expressions of care and prayer are very comforting to the woman's family. Even if the woman's family are atheists, they are still an expression of sympathy and empathy. Unless they are pretty extreme, the prayer component should be nothing more than an empty gesture.

I do agree with the comment of the 55 year old about the tornado. It is poor form to claim favor from God in being spared death from a tornado when someone else has suffered a tragic loss. He is an idiot. That kind of stupidity is not confined to theists however.

The example of the kid running into the street is not a good analogy. That is a situation where the perspective of God is different from the perspective of a person. It would be evil for me to do nothing while allowing a child to run to their death. It is not necessarily evil for God to allow the same thing to happen. Is that something we have to dig into or do you agree?

Does God do things unintentionally?

So what you are saying is that "praying" is useless and a waste of time? I agree with you!
Great, people "pray" to show "cold hearted atheists" that they have empathy, cool!

When are people going to join the 21st century. It really seems like a bunch of people are stuck in the middle ages or they are rebelling and acting like children!

Agree. My post was not a question, nor was it meant to provoke some deep philosophical discussion. It was merely a rant that didn't fit anywhere else (or if it did, I didn't know where because I haven't been here much lately).

Is it? I question this and it's where at least part of my anger stems from. There are many other cases where people people make such comments even though they have no intention of lifting a finger to help. What do you think the ratio of prayers to dollars is for people and towns devastated by earthquakes, floods, and other disasters? My guess is that prayers outnumber dollars or any other actual effort to help by a landslide.


Another point of anger for me. It's the epitome of arrogance to assume that invoking a character that others thinks is fictional would be a source of comfort. Sure, the gesture is sincere and I have no doubt they mean well, but it is NOT comforting!! Not if you don't believe in such things. This is a little different, but what of the person who loses a loved one and has to hear countless offerings of fairy tale wishes like "Oh, well they're with the Lord now", or "They're in a better place", etc. In fact, the brother of the American Hero Pat Tillman (at least he's a hero in my eyes), demonstrated how frustrating it can be when he felt it necessary to point out during the eulogy: "While I appreciate the thoughts, but my brother is not with god. He's dead!".

Why?



Why?

I think so. I do not understand why god should be held to a different standard. Why would you expect earthly beings to have a higher morality than the god you worship? Please explain.

Is everything that happens an act of God?

What's your view of Ms Caitlyn Jenner out of curiosity?

You sound ridiculous and are making an ass out of yourself to believers. Why aren't you hiding your views? Why do you expect others to do what you do not?

The person who owned my house before me was Jewish and left a mezuzah on the front door. I took it as a gesture of well-wishes even though it holds no particular symbolic meaning to me. Should I be outraged or offended?

OK. I am certainly guilty of a rant now and then. Usually to my wife who promptly informs me that I am becoming a grumpy old man. That is an inhibiter.

There are some pretty impressive examples of Christian charity also. In the baseball case though, there really is very little anyone can do.


That is Pat Tillman's belief although the fact is he has no way of knowing where his brother is. But I would not point that out to him. Once I knew what his belief was I would respect that. If he expressed anger I would apologize and chalk it up to grief. If his anger continued long enough I would think he had emotional problems.

It is a question of frame of reference. If the child dies all I can know for certain is the child's loss of life and the grief of the family. Everything else is speculative whatever my personal belief.

If there is a God, His perspective is much different. The child does not die. It moves to a new life. The parent's experience grief but grief can make us stronger if we handle it right.

It is not that our morality is higher. It is just different because our perspective is different.

It is a clear error in logic to use the observation of evil to conclude that God has flawed morality. It is essentially a reductio ad absurdum argument but made with a set of starting assumptions that have subtly built in the non existence of God.

I think it's likely that she's pumping up publicity for her new reality show. Other than that, I really don't have an opinion. If she feels she's a woman then she did the right thing. I think it takes guts.

But you ignored the question. Do you dispute that people who pray for victims far outnumber number those who contribute dollars, or other tangible efforts to help?

That's the point. Tillman knows the body of his brother is in the ground, but no one can possibly know that its soul is in heaven, with god, or any other such place. Therefore, it is arrogant to make assumptions, and presumptuous to think everyone believes as you do. Or I do, or he does, etc.

But would you assume he believed as you do and offer prayers to your god or mention that a loved is in a better place? Would you say to a grieving Muslim that their deceased loved one is with your god? If not, why on earth is it okay to say something similar to someone who may be an atheist? The answer (in my opinion) is that people are brainwashed to believe that this is a Christian nation and everyone believes (or should believe) as they do. I'm not saying you feel this way, but certainly many do.

So let's say the guy who let the child saunter into the middle of the street is a Christian. Why not let him off the hook too? As a Christian he believes the child does not die and it moves to a new life. So just as it's okay for god, there's nothing wrong him not lifting a finger to save the child, right? If wrong, then why would it be wrong?

You keep bringing up evil, but I do not see this as evil (maybe I'm wrong?). Where is the evil in a bat shard flying into someone's head? It certainly doesn't make Brett Lowrie evil, nor is the bat evil. So where are you getting evil from?

I don't know, I'd of thought so, if he exists. As he is the grand creator and ****.

Why am I not surprised you ignored this?

What's ridiculous? At least I state what it is that I have a problem.

To a religious person, the idea that there is no God or that God is somehow unwilling to intervene whenever anything bad might happen is ridiculous.

More to the point I was making is that your assertion that people who disagree with your religious beliefs, or lack thereof, should not voice their opinions because you think they're ridiculous, is utterly ridiculous. Surely, you see the hypocrisy in that sentiment, do you not?

God was obviously unwilling to intervene in this case. How is that ridiculous?

Offering prayers on an open forum is not an opinion. It's PRAYER. Come back when you have enough common sense to make a reasoned argument. It's engaging with lamb chops like you why I stopped reading this forum.

Lol, is that supposed to hurt my feelings? Your claims and arguments make no sense and circumvent the question I asked. Typical response from someone who doesn't have a leg to stand on. Good day.