Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
I know they mean well, but... I know they mean well, but...

07-06-2015 , 07:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dereds
My argument is that various personal autonomy is a central concept to various utilitarian accounts of the good and as such there is nothing contradictory in holding a consequentialist viewpoint and valuing personal autonomy.
This. Decision-making autonomy > moral obligation.

Decision-making autonomy is compatible with weak notions of moral obligation, whereby it has been decided that doing X is immoral in one specific circumstance (due to non-utilitarian outcomes), but individuals should still have the choice to do X in that circumstance.

Decision-making autonomy is incompatible with strong notions of moral obligation, whereby it has been decided that doing X is immoral in one specific circumstance (due to non-utilitarian outcomes), and individuals should not have the choice to do X in that circumstance.

Last edited by VeeDDzz`; 07-06-2015 at 07:23 PM.
I know they mean well, but... Quote
07-09-2015 , 01:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lestat
To me, this is the kind of thing that makes religious people appear so dumb...

Lady gets hit by a broken bat at a ballgame. Reports are that the injury is life threatening. Baseball forums blow up with prayers and religious people calling on god to make her better.

One comment in particular: "May God bless her and heal her and bring her back home again".

How about if god simply prevented the bat from hitting her in the first place? Does that not occur to the religious? Or do they think they're prayers are going to supersede their almighty god's will? I know this sounds insulting if you're religious and the type who would offer such a comment, but it seems absurd to think that your prayers would matter after the god you're praying to allowed something like this to happen. And if you don't think your prayers matter, then why bother praying or making such a comment?

I don't begrudge anyone praying for this woman's recovery. But maybe keep it to yourself? Before saying things like this publicly try imagining just how ridiculous you sound to non believers.
many people believe god gave us free will and doesnt control every day to day action, but can intervene when it is appropriate.
I know they mean well, but... Quote
07-11-2015 , 04:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeeDDzz`
Was sex-before-marriage immoral before people changed to accepting that it was actually moral?
Do you think that sex before marriage used to be immoral (actually immoral, not simply considered immoral by more people than do today) and became moral (actually moral, not simply considered moral...)?

I would obviously say that there is nothing immoral about sex before marriage, all that changes is people's understanding. My earlier example, slavery was always immoral, its just that more people have come to understand why. Same for, say, misogyny - not treating females as equals is immoral, and again, more people have come to understand why. As opposed to these ideas changing from being actually moral to actually immoral (or vice versa).

Quote:
Originally Posted by VeeDDzz`
Indeed, if that person chose to give his organs, or died, it would be a moral choice/outcome. This is not to say that person has a moral obligation to the people dying of organ failure. He still has the personal liberty to choose for himself. I don't believe in any strong notions of moral obligation. At least until we can discount the possibility of solipsism: which we can't - thus value for decision-making freedom outweighs value for moral action.
I'm more interested in the medical teams choices rather than the gunshot victims, actually. Earlier you described someone that failed to perform an immoral act that would have an overall great benefit as cowardly. Are the medical team cowardly if they save that persons life instead of allowing him to die and harvesting the organs to save multiple other patients? For simplicity, this gunshot victim requires only a standard level of care to save him, nothing extraordinary, but without this care he would not survive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VeeDDzz`
If species with empathy can do more immoral things (e.g., pave concrete over multiple habitats) than species without it, then how is morality based on empathy in your conception of it?
Without the ability to empathise, an organism cannot be aware that it is causing harm to another. Hence, empathy is a requirement for moral behaviour. Species without empathy cannot exhibit moral behaviour. I don't think this is controversial, is it?

Very much simplified, morality is about recognising that (and how) someones behaviour positively or negatively affects another. I like "morality = empathy + reasoning".

Last edited by BeaucoupFish; 07-11-2015 at 05:02 AM.
I know they mean well, but... Quote
07-12-2015 , 06:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeaucoupFish
Do you think that sex before marriage used to be immoral (actually immoral, not simply considered immoral by more people than do today) and became moral (actually moral, not simply considered moral...)?"
At one point in time, in much of western society, it was immoral. I am not sure what you mean by "considered immoral".

You're making a distinction between what is 'considered immoral' and what is 'immoral' as if slavery had always been immoral, but it just took us some time to realise this...

My counter to this is the argument that before industrial machinery empowered us to better meet the accelerating demands for physical labor, slavery may have been necessary to the development and survival of many of the great ancient civilizations.

In this case above, it was technology's influence that prompted a real change in our thinking on slavery. In fact, some philosophers in ancient Greece may have been repulsed at the moral implications of slavery, just as some people may be repulsed at the moral implications of eating meat in the current context. This doesn't mean that eating meat is immoral right now. Especially if meat is currently necessary to ensure that our growing populations can be fed.

On a related note. I can just as easily make a similar distinction between those who are 'considered powerful' and those who are 'actually powerful', but for all intents and purposes this distinction would be unnecessary. If some CEO for example is 'considered powerful' because he is paid/valued twenty times higher than any of his peers, then he is powerful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeaucoupFish
I'm more interested in the medical teams choices rather than the gunshot victims, actually. Earlier you described someone that failed to perform an immoral act that would have an overall great benefit as cowardly. Are the medical team cowardly if they save that persons life instead of allowing him to die and harvesting the organs to save multiple other patients? For simplicity, this gunshot victim requires only a standard level of care to save him, nothing extraordinary, but without this care he would not survive.
The medical team have to follow procedures that have been set in place. Are they cowardly for following the procedures? Only if they disagree with them.

P.S. I think that cowardice is rampant in modern society. It has almost become the normal way of functioning, as value for 'courage' has lost significant ground in the post-industrial era. Much of this is to do with the new power structures and rising power inequalities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeaucoupFish
Without the ability to empathise, an organism cannot be aware that it is causing harm to another. Hence, empathy is a requirement for moral behaviour. Species without empathy cannot exhibit moral behaviour. I don't think this is controversial, is it?
It's not controversial.

So you wouldn't label for example a lion who eats his own baby as behaving immorally?

Last edited by VeeDDzz`; 07-12-2015 at 06:57 PM.
I know they mean well, but... Quote
07-13-2015 , 04:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeeDDzz`
So you wouldn't label for example a lion who eats his own baby as behaving immorally?
Would you?
I know they mean well, but... Quote
07-13-2015 , 06:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dereds
Would you?
If eating babies is morally wrong in the case of humans, I'm just trying to understand why this is not so in the case of lions. I've heard 'empathy' so far, yet the necessity for empathy implies some sort of hard-coding (genetic) requirements for morality.

To provide another example. Bees have high amounts of oxytocin chemicals, mirror neurons and most other characteristics associated with empathy. In fact, they're commonly referred to as the most altruistic species on earth. So, if a bee were to kill other bee babies, would it be behaving immorally?

Or do we also need 'reasoning' for morality to have meaning? If so, how much of one's reasoning capability is already hard-coded (genetic)?

Can this be extended to conclude that most of morality and moral behaviour therefore, is hard-coded?

Or perhaps, both of these morality requirements are commonly imposed without acknowledging their implications? perhaps in an attempt to explain something that's not there to begin with? or something that could be replaced with a more descriptive phrase like: 'survival strategies?'

I'm trying to understand why philosophers in particular, cling to this notion of morality as something that cannot be learned about through observation of other species behaviour (evolutionary biology).
I know they mean well, but... Quote
07-14-2015 , 01:42 AM
The ability to comprehend moral concepts is required for being a moral agent.

Empathy may motivate moral actions but they no more define them than egotistical motivations do. So I would argue that the ability to reason is central, the form that moral facts take or whether they exist at all is another question.
I know they mean well, but... Quote
07-14-2015 , 01:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dereds
The ability to comprehend moral concepts is required for being a moral agent.

Empathy may motivate moral actions but they no more define them than egotistical motivations do. So I would argue that the ability to reason is central, the form that moral facts take or whether they exist at all is another question.
Some birds can comprehend moral concepts in that they appear to be aware of the existence of other birds and how their actions impact on other birds.

They share food for example, and they care for their young.

It seems to me that maybe, it is not only the ability to comprehend moral concepts, but language as well, that may be a defining component.

Beyond self-interest, what use is the ability to comprehend moral concepts, if those concepts cannot be communicated/shared with others?
I know they mean well, but... Quote

      
m